front office - career advice
 

Hi all,

I am entering front-office sales role as my first job.
hope to seek some advice from you guys.

Here's my profile.

SIM - UOL (first class honours)
Economics and Finance

I am eloquent and outspoken.
Decided to take up front office sales role as a part of my career

I have 3 options now.

Life Planner - associate with 1 of the agencies which carry GE / LionGlobal policies.

Relationship manager - DBS

Relationship Manager - SCB

I am not that monetary driven.
I see myself going for growth / management positions.

I have a few questions.

1. being in front office, local banks better or international banks?

2. what should i consider before making an informed decision? mentorship? culture?

3. what would you advise me to choose?

your inputs are much appreciated.

lmao working in a banking branch in Bishan street 35 doesnt make you a front office sales 'banker'. Wake up your bladdy idea SIM kid. You are and always will be, a insurance salesman.

Any Tom Dick and Harry can get into such a role. Heck, your poly dropout can be one of those 'bankers' that ll replace you when you cant hit your sales target and your branch manager starts shouting down your throat.


FO sales role = institutional sales/ traders.

just to answer you.
What Is The Front Office (FO)? | Wall Street Oasis...

i extracted the lines for you.

The front office is the client-facing part of the firm and includes the roles which focus on working with and for clients, rather than in support, risk, compliance and operations roles.

Usually, front office roles are income generating

Front office roles can be thought of as the intermediary roles, both between clients and between outside and inside roles


Buddy, I don't give a **** whether I call myself a banker or not. I never once said that,
if it pleases you.
you can just filter the words "front office" to "client facing position"
and yes, i already knew i am selling insurance.


lmao, who gives a **** about titles?
I dont care what you call me


you failed to answer the questions that i posted anyway

I would go with SCB. They have good internal mobility options, if you manage to do well / network a bit. Not very informed about DBS on this.

thanks

have you heard this from personal experience?
or word of mouth?

A bit of advice for you:

First of all please don't go around calling yourself a banking FO, this will invite nothing but derision on a personal level and worst still during interview get yourself labeled as an ignorant candidate who doesn't even know what he's on about.

Googling around for esoteric definitions to argue that branch sales and insurance agent is "technically" banking front office isn't going to get you anywhere in your career.

Basically these retail sales level positions you have mentioned are really baseline entry sales jobs. I don't think whether its Standard Chartered or UOB is going to make much of a difference. As for management positions, there are a minority cases of sales who made it to branch managerial level after many years, but you should only join if you truly are interested in sales & "money". You don't join a retail sales job wanting to "grow" with the company.

If you are thinking of fast tracking to be some manager a.k.a. VP/SVP then MAP is the way to go, but unfortunately for you AFAIK all banks have no interest in SIM students. Be realistic and humble and for god's sake at least be familiar of what some banking jargon mean in the market before embarrassing yourself out there.

word of mouth. friend works there, pretty happy. but he's doing risk mgmt.

A youngster with weak academics, yaya papaya attitude, joining consumer sales and not interested in money but dreaming of getting promoted to manager... Haha good luck, ya gonna need it.

Noted.
I am aware that SIM has no hope for MAP.
I see where you are coming from.

I would like to reiterate that i never addressed myself as a banker.
If you feel that calling myself as part of FO is incorrectly.

Den i will address myself a client-facing position.

To me, how you wanna classify me as, it doesnt matter. i dont care about the title. and like what you said.
not front office, just client facing retail sales. Ok noted.

I just wanted some insights between the 3 options i have.
you did provide them.
so thank you

thanks.
i'll take what i have.

oh dear, another sim acting street smart wanting to make it big in banking again....

It's a standard pte uni grad drill seen frequently. They tend to think acting like a devil may care jerk and throw in plenty of verbal wise cracks will stand out as "street smart" and ensure career success.

Well this one seems more sensible and down to earth than the rest. you should see the typical SIM on this board waving their "LSE" degrees about and indignantly claiming that if bill gates can drop out of harvard to make it big, they can too.

firstly, i've to agree you are just an insurance salesman. secondly, u have a first class why not you go into other aspects of finance? audit in deloitte is a good choice? many uol first class grads there doing audit there. granted low starting salary, but you'll get there in a few years. not to mention audit associate in deloitte as an experience is definitely gonna look good in your resume.

for mother ****ers who think deloitte don't employ uol graduates as audit associate, please go linkedin and look around if you're still a poor uni student.

Do note that Deloitte is the smallest and also the lowest starting pay and subsequent increment in terms of big 4 in SG. Yes they do accept SIM, but that's largely because many good grads are already taken up by the other 3, esp PWC & KPMG that strictly don't accept any pte uni grads. EY has the rare few once in a while.

tried applying.
no response, could be due to poor market conditions leading to freezing hiring head count. I dont eliminate the possibility of that.

either way, i've been advised to give sales role a try because of my eloquence, outlook and personal experience in investments. (>50k real cash, its not huge, but just in case some people are trying to point out i join virtual competitions, please, don't)

Personal experience in investing wouldn't matter in a sales role unfortunately. You'll find out why when you join. SCB is a dying company, it keeps going through hiring and firing cycle, I would personally stay clear.

And if you want to go for managerial role in the future, it would be better for you to think what kind of managerial role you want. Please don't tell me anything is fine as long as it is a manger, cause that is totally not an answer. From sales you will probably go towards a sales managerial role, which is probably not what most people want unless they are really into sales. I am not saying moving to products or other functions are not possible, it is just very difficult and not the common path.

Do what work you enjoy or least dislike. nuff said.

After a few years on the job, it makes no difference anymore. Few people genuinely enjoy their jobs. Most people become jaded and and even fewer people actually get to do work they want. This RM job of yours will probably have reliable hours etc.. So you can go use your spare time to focus on the 'Life' aspect of work-life balance.

Whoever advised you on this has no idea what he/she is talking about. Eloquence is only a small part of being a successful salesman and playing with 50k in the stock market has ZERO relation with doing insurance sales.

I agree with the poster on top - do what is at least acceptable to you, don't just join sales because someone gave you some bad advice or you just have some fuzzy concept of becoming a 'manager'.

Deloitte just had a mass recruitment exercise 1-2months back at ntu/smu.

no, deloitte brings in sim 3levels below local grads.

what do you mean by this? so if a big3U enters as an A1, what does an SIM enter as?

SIM enter at another scheme that is considered non-associate. IIRC on average need to work ~3 years then can promote to A1, i.e. first year associate.

If eloquence isn't essential, which qualities, in your humble opinion, is?

TS is from SIM.
They may be hiring from local uni for the moment only.
had friends in pte uni. (FCH + ACCA). deloitte still didnt get back to him

I am not the original poster, but been doing sales for 8 years I agree eloquence is way overrated esp for those who never do sales before - they think sales is just sweet talk non-stop.

For sure you must be comfortable with interacting with all sorts of people, but beyond that being eloquent doesn't help much. Empathy, understanding decision making / power structure in your client organization, understanding industry & how your products are position, being able to negotiate professionally, being able to navigate your own co politic to get things done in your favor is much more important.

Most people who only know how to eloquent talk will forever be stuck at doing mass market sales selling cheap & low margin products to general market. For e.g. in banking if you just remain stuck at this sort of level selling retail and SME products, there is a limit to how much you can make even if you are the top performer and if you are just average, the package might even end up much worse than working in a normal office job.

just to put it out here before any sim starts thinking that their fellow kind made it to big4 so yaya..

1. most acct grads (i mean local and proper uni only) these days only consider the big4 if they cant get a banking MAP/MA role
2. the big4 has always brought in sim folks - however, they come in at a different level, not the entry level associate ranking. it takes them almost 4 years to get to the level that a fresh local grad comes in at.
3. that said, not all get promoted to that lvl after 4yrs. i know several sim who are stuck below assoc1 even after 6yrs.

it seems quite pointless for a sim (or any pte u grad) to join big4 if thats the case. I mean assuming a guy finish ns & studies at 25 join them and 4 years later 29 yo then reach entry level associate?!?! might as well go elsewhere or start own biz.

pride. can boast to his peers the big4 hired him.

local acct grads these days dont wana do audit. most of them only attend the mass recruitment exercise after they got rejected from the banks MAP.

btw, for sim folks, here's how a typical exercise goes.

the big4 will send out invites to the accting final year students, and book 10 rooms and lecture halls in the respective school. cool huh? the recruiters actually come to campus. the whole process is like a doc visit. you submit your cv, and wait to get called.

usually most students will get 2-3 offers, the better ones obvious get offers from all 4.

however, from what i know, the big 4 rejects almost 90% of cvs from sim. the remainder get called up, and offered the junior ranks below assoc.

its actually the same rank a poly grad with acca gets.

i really dun see the logic, what is so prestigious about going big4? I can understand IB or trading, but taking lousy pay that is not even executive level just to have a big4 name card sounds so lame. does it even help in the cv to say that 1 has worked in big4 as a non-exec for a few years?

Oh man you guys are going to get a reality check when you graduate from school. Not all local grads go to MAP or top jobs. It is still reserved for the best of the best. Most local grads still end up in average jobs.

And I really don't see how this is 'cool'. The only reason big 4 does this is because its turnover is so high they have to replace staff constantly. You can come show off when MBB or IB come do this at your school

It is about the difference in perception.

The ivies see anything less than prestigious firms like JPM, Credit Suisse, Barclays, MBB consultancies, big oil Shell, Exxon, FMCG leaders Unilever, P&G, Nestle etc. as failure in career.

The local u grads consider being able to get into those above as great success and mid tier firms like big 4 as necessary evil to build up cv. So big 4 to them is like doing grunt work to gain the exp and still keep their career competitive.

The pte u grads consider able to join big 4 as a fantastic and prestigious opportunity as most of them will end up in local sme or small glc.

Ignore these arrogant dix. Just start working in a bank for now, meanwhile get certifications and further education. While doing this, job-hop until you get where you wish to get to.

Pte U students find it harder at first, but with time and exp you will do just fine.

a pte u student who job hop a few times in banks can exceed a local u fch within 5 years.

example? put some linkedin profiles please

a lot of them, not going to spoonfeed u. anyway those who r really good wont bother to put up linkedin cauz headhunter calling them all the time.

Word.

Yeah i dont see how it is cool. So the 3 local unis are target schools for big 4. Big whoop. Not even real finance. Its not like they are the london schools (imperial, lse, ucl) that are target schools for the global banks and IB shops. In the US biz schools, the top tier firms also do on campus recruiting. The difference is that they are Goldman sachs and Lazard, not pwc.

Lastly, u overestimate the no of local uni biz students going to good MA or grad programmes. Id say about 20-30%? Majority also go to middling stat boards or GLCs.

Btw im not in finance, so this is an objective outsiders perspective.

I would say top 25% of local uni biz students going to good MA/grad programmes is about right. Btw, top firms like Goldman Sachs/JPM etc do actually make an effort to do campus visits/talks in local uni business schools. Most of it, you have to apply for .. but it's quite far from the truth that local unis aren't targeted at all.

That said, I do agree with your premise that the bulk of local uni biz students don't actually have stellar jobs awaiting them. Big 4, I believe, accounts for a sizeable bulk, especially for accountancy students.

The distinction btw the London schools and local uni grads has narrowed considerably in recent years. I understand that top-tier firms do conduct talks and recruitment exercise in local campuses. Me a non-local grad.

The truth is the London schools aren't that tough to get into.

I applied and got accepted to LSE and UCL but chose a local uni business school due to cost reasons. The London schools are mainly looking at grades in deciding admission and most students at local business schools (ESP NUS) are straight A students.

Im #36. Yeah I agree, local uni business courses are generally quite good and on par with the London schools. A Level wise, entry standards are roughly about the same.

But gotta remember that UK unis are much more cosmopolitan than SG. They take in all sorts of brilliant people from everywhere. Your average SG student studying in London is prolly from one of the good JCs, and if he's not a scholar, then its parents' money, i.e. above-average or good caliber. But those from poorer countries who attend, they literally competed with and won thousands of other students from their countries to secure the 1 or 2 scholarship places to study at these schools. Without such scholarship they couldnt even dream of leaving their countries. So these students are top tier and brilliant.

So there's a wide spectrum of students in these schools, ranging from your run of the mill good results type (eg typical RJ student from SG on either parents' money or generic Ministry scholarship) to super brilliant type (eg Rhodes / Commonwealth Scholarship-type from India or South Africa).