Full-time vs internship
 

Hi,

While I was discharging my NS liability, I duely completed all ACCA examinations before my ORD next month. However, I am confused as to, given the fact that I would enter university in Aug/Sep 2013, should I search for a full-time position or intern in one of the Big 4s.

I understand that full-time position confers more training opportunities, will allow me to command a higher salary and provides me with more responsibilities, but the ethicality of professing that I would not resign from the job in 6 months is troubling me.

Therefore, I would like to enquire on the following issues:

1. Does interning provide me the same training opportunities as assuming a full-time appointment?
2. Is it unethical to resign after 6 months, and will it carry ramifications to my employability in the future? I plan to work as a lawyer then hop to management consultancy.

Regards
Kaden

for option 2, you want to take on perm job but quit in 6 months? i think the interviewer might ask you whether you plan to join university right? even if you said going to uni next year, means you are going to stay in the company max 1.5yrs, which wouldnt put you in a good light IMHO.

A 3-6mths full time contract might suit you better..

confusing... first say complete acca then say want to be lawyer then later want to be management consultant.

Yeah.. I also confused about that. Seems like TS doesn't know what he wants.
If you finished your ACCA with good grades, you can try going straight into Big4. Some firms are willing to accept acca in lieu of a degree.

ACCA and accountancy side can later move on to consultancy roles but I don't get the lawyer part. BTW you can take up summer internships with the big4 which will coincide and end just before uni starts. Anyway if they offer you a FT position you should just take it.

Ohh my apologies for the confusion: My mid-term aim is to be a lawyer as the job scope is more interesting and is better paid as compared to an accountant.

In the long-term, however, I will use my lawyering and slight accounting experience to transit into management consultancy. My motivation in doing so lies solely in trying to break the pay cap faced by many lawyers and hopefully understand more about businesses to eventually hold multiple directorships.

Is it irresponsible or does it reflect unfavourably upon me in the future to leave after just 6 months of being permanent staff?

My aims of working for the coming 6 months are to bolster my CV and gain some practical knowledge to satisfy the ACCA's practical experience requirements.

You have a fundamental misconception on how careers work. You do not move up the ladder by picking up all sorts of unrelated entry level skill sets along the way. ACCA prepares you to be an accountant, a legal degree prepares you to be a lawyer or legal counsel. These skills have very little to do with your ultimate goal as a management consultant.

To be a management consultant in a big firm, you need an MBA from a top tier university like Insead, Harvard, Chicago, Wharton, Imperial etc. Having a law degree or ACCA has zero value. Also to be a management consultant the closest career experience you need is M&A Corporate Finance, Marketing & Business Planning Strategy or Human Resource.

You are going about totally the wrong way.

Thank you very much for spending the time to address my concerns.

I have always understood ACCA to be sub-par to any business-related degrees but my research indicated that it is the most optimal choice of course to take when serving NS.

A cursory review of the the NUS Law syllabus also suggests that reading law, except for certain small modules, are hardly contributive to my goal of being a management consultant. While NUS provides us with the option of undertaking a Biz/Law DDP, I don't find the value in spending an extra year doing business, while crippling myself of the number of law electives I can take, when I can use that extra year to complete an MBA. This is also the reason why I refuse to spend 3 years to complete a BBA, even though it can be claimed that it is more relevant to my eventual goal.

My tentative plan is therefore as such: leverage on my ACCA accreditation to land a strategy or transactions (E&Y) role in one of the top 4 as an intern for 6 months before the school term commences, finish my law course and pupilage, take up an MBA at a reputable university then transit into management consultancy.

BCG and McKinsey's websites both revealed that they are seeking graduates with law degrees for their business consultancy work. This has led me to believe that completing ACCA, LLM and MBA will serve me well towards my goal of being a management consultant, while also giving me the financial security a law degree confers.

I have never heard of a lawyer going into accounts or an accountant practising law. Once you go into accounting/law, they are professionals in their own right, and any other side careers will dilute your skill set.

If you really like both accounts and law, the generic way here is to specialise in commercial or tax law, and they usually start their careers as lawyers. With these knowledge, you could fulfil your management consultant role of being a legal adviser.

True, if your intended path is to focus on just accounting and law, any careers unrelated to these 2 professions will dilute your skill-sets.

My personal perspective of these two professions, on the contrary, is that they are professional skill-sets or knowledge that will complement my MBA, which I would bank on to secure a job as a management consultant in firms like Bain, BCG, McKinsey. I have no plans to become a legal advisor in the long-term.

It would be greatly appreciated if someone would be kind enough to spend some time to address these questions aforementioned:

1. Does interning provide me the same training opportunities as assuming a full-time appointment?
2. Is it unethical to resign after 6 months, and will it carry ramifications to my employability in the future? I plan to work as a lawyer then hop to management consultancy.

Understand where you are coming from as you have no work experience, but the labor market does not work this way.

Firstly, an internship in a big4 will not enable you to “leverage” in any meaningful way. The big4 boys recruit fresh grads as associates by the dozens like packing sheep on trucks every year. A permanent role in a big4 for 1 year doesn’t even register in most CVs, much less a 6 month internship. An intern will not do any strategy role in E&Y, such work is reserved for partner level. Many associates are in big4 for 5-7 years until managerial/AD level and do not even smell anything that resembles “strategy” - It’s mostly process and reporting.

You cannot take up a MBA program in a prestigious university with just a pupilage. A pupilage prepares one to take the bar exams with the ultimate aim of getting called to the bar as a practicing lawyer. These world class MBA programs do not accept people with only short junior level experiences, you need to either be a principal in a practice or a well-experienced legal counsel in a big company. I don’t think even garbage MBA programs from NUS/NTU will accept a law grad who just completes his pupilage.

You are not giving due credit to the legal fraternity. A top practicing lawyer or General Counsel/Company Secretary of a MNC is in no way lower paid than a management consultant from McK/BCK/Bain.

Understand where you are coming from as you have no work experience, but the labor market does not work this way.

Firstly, an internship in a big4 will not enable you to “leverage” in any meaningful way. The big4 boys recruit fresh grads as associates by the dozens like packing sheep on trucks every year. A permanent role in a big4 for 1 year doesn’t even register in most CVs, much less a 6 month internship. An intern will not do any strategy role in E&Y, such work is reserved for partner level. Many associates are in big4 for 5-7 years until managerial/AD level and do not even smell anything that resembles “strategy” - It’s mostly process and reporting.

You cannot take up a MBA program in a prestigious university with just a pupilage. A pupilage prepares one to take the bar exams with the ultimate aim of getting called to the bar as a practicing lawyer. These world class MBA programs do not accept people with only short junior level experiences, you need to either be a principal in a practice or a well-experienced legal counsel in a big company. I don’t think even garbage MBA programs from NUS/NTU will accept a law grad who just completes his pupilage.

You are not giving due credit to the legal fraternity. A top practicing lawyer or General Counsel/Company Secretary of a MNC is in no way lower paid than a management consultant from McK/BCK/Bain.

1. E&Y has no training opportunities. They operate like sweat shop of cheap labour. Just serve and fcuk off like NS.

2. They won't even bother about you resigning. Lost of people join and resign all the time in E&Y.

E&Y intern hop to lawyer hop to management consultant... ROFL good luck with that dream dude, more like your CV will end up in dustbin.

Typical Singaporean. Plan like siao :rolleyes:

The main take-away I hope to get from this thread is the clarification of whether there exists any implications for quitting a full-time job after 6 months.

I know that there are limited training opportunities interns receive and the sweatshop working conditions they are made to go through, but if it is not practical for me to work full-time, this is the best way forward.

Harvard and Stanford MBA admission websites both indicate that one need not necessary have working experience to enroll in their MBA programmes. Even if both policies are not representative of admission requirements, it is heartening to know that there are some branded universities that would accommodate my plans.

The basis for comparison between a management consultant and corporate secretary in a MNC is dubious. It would perhaps be more appropriate to compare like with like: CEO vs corporate secretary of an MNC.

I am also guilty of failing to see how lawyering and working as a management consultant would destroy my CV.

I know what I type may sound over-bearing for a 20 year old, with no full-time work experience and have yet to complete NS, but my wish is to only clarify issues raised and to promote constructive discussion.

No, there are no implications for quitting a full-time job after 6 months especially if you are talking about big4 because as mentioned earlier, there are many, many others who have done that.

That said, I don't think 6 months at a big four as a full-timer is useful experience. It is too short to include it in your resume and I'm doubtful you'll get any references/testimonial. You're better off interning at a law firm or getting some other non-accounting/audit experience.

Are you nuts? You really think you can just walk into a Harvard MBA with a 6 months internship in E&Y? Sorry to sound harsh, but you are seriously deluded.

Let me give you a practical suggestion, go down to Dhoby Ghaut MRT, the Chicago Business School (another top notch MBA) admission office beside Park Mall. Tell them you just graduate with a law degree and 6 months E&Y internship experience and want to sign up for their MBA program and then you observe their reaction.

I predict they will roll their eyes and gently but firmly tell you to go & get a real job, work yourself to at least a mid high managerial level in a global MNC then come back and they will consider.

Most MBA schools would publish their students' profiles and how much work experience they have. eg Class Profile | The Wharton MBA Program

u should use ur lawyer brains to think if so easy why anyone want to work for big4. might as well all wayang for 6 mths as intern then go study mba and be a top paying mgt consultant

Most gundu plan ever. Take ACCA to get into law and take law to get into management consultant. SMLJ plan is that?

I'm appreciative of those who provided constructive advice, such as highlighting the impossibility of achieving an MBA without an real work experience. Thanks to you I am currently reviewing my plans.

I would also like to comment that it is absolutely immature to hurl insults at someone who is genuinely seeking help and advice and have done no harm to you or any third party. It is even sadder when those insults are baseless and give no due consideration to the information I have actually provided.

It is normal some people will be more direct to the point of being rude, others will be more polite. No matter what it doesn't change the fact yours is quite a foolish plan. Once you go out to work, colleagues will smile and massage your ego in front and laugh behind your back which will be far worse.

It is best you identify what you really want to do first before thinking in vague abstract generalities like wanting multiple directorships, hoping around your way to riches, getting a world class mba etc. Time waits for no one, once you make a mistake and find out only in your mid 30s by then it will likely be too late to recover lost time.

you seriously need to man the F up and eat some humble pie. When you present your plans and ideas, prepare to stand by it and take the heat. If next time your colleagues/boss criticize your project as not viable and basically going nowhere, you're going to cry in one corner and blast them as immature is it?

We giving you realistic grounded advice here. Besides wth takes ACCA then LLB expecting to move into mgt consultancy roles? smlj? illogical and wasting your youth only. decide on a specific industry and then work towards it.

He took ACCA during NS isn't it? I don't know why everyone is so mean on this thread.
Doing ACCA during NS is better than just bumming around isn't it?

better mean and honest then say useless positive things that mean no sh!t. besides others not saying ACCA not good rather they are saying the plan to use ACCA to leverage to E&Y internship to leverage to LLB to leverage to Harvard MBA to leverage to Mckenzie consultant is dumb not workable.

The working world does not count on qualifications only. You need connections to make it big as well.

I thanked and acknowledged every advice that was given. I dedicated a paragraph solely to address those who fired personal attacks. is this an indication of me being a pussy and prideful?

I appreciate realistic grounded advice, and I would like to thank you for spending some time to highlight the unfeasibility of my plans. But i see no need to include what may deem to you as the realism of verbal warfare and blunt criticisms to a kid who is seeking advice from people who are more experienced.

In return for your advice, let me give you another: it would serve you well if you don't speak in real life in the same way as you do in forums; but it's alright if you only articulate these thoughts in anonymity online.

while certain top universities like cambridge do require you to work 3 years before commencing your mba course, other universities like harvard did not state that as a pre-requistite in their admission criteria.
To be considered for admission, an applicant must have successfully completed the following:

A degree program at an accredited U.S. four-year undergraduate college/university or its equivalent (unless you are a college senior applying to our 2+2 Program).
Graduate Management Admission Test (GMAT) or Graduate Record Examination (GRE) from a test taken January 1, 2008 or later. The GMAT or GRE is a prerequisite for admission;
Internet-based Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL iBT) or International English Language Testing System (IELTS) score from a test taken January 1, 2011 or later, is required for international applicants who attended a non-English-speaking undergraduate university; and
Submission of a complete online application for evaluation by one of the decision round deadlines.


Thus, it is still possible for you to take on the MBA upon completing your law degree for consultancy and if that is the case, whether you are doing an internship or a short term full time position will not actually benefit you in terms of your long term goal.

And, to answer your question

1. Does interning provide me the same training opportunities as assuming a full-time appointment?

This, i really do not know but the internships at big 4 are definitely well-sought after by many students in the local universities.

2. Is it unethical to resign after 6 months, and will it carry ramifications to my employability in the future? I plan to work as a lawyer then hop to management consultancy.

If you are honest to the company that you can commit for 6 months then they will not fault you in any way should you leave the company but chances are, they will not employ you.

Hope this helps.

Havard MBA has never accepted anyone who has never worked before, they do not state it because it is already expected that everyone will know.

In short you are not saying anything

Again thats not saying anything.

Harvard, along with Stanford, does indeed allow you, and there are real examples to substantiate so, to participate in an MBA programme immediately graduation, but this privilege is reserved for the most exceptional of applicants who have exemplified that they have acquired valuable business experience and displayed excellent civic consciousness during the course of their undergraduate studies.

Regardless, it would be good if I can have more insights that would aid me in resolving my dilemma of internship vs full-time.

One silly internship as a paper boy in EY need to plan, think, delimma, strategize so long still no answer...

Quote 1:
Havard MBA has never accepted anyone who has never worked before, they do not state it because it is already expected that everyone will know.

If you have a basis for that, please substantiate.

Quote:2
1. Does interning provide me the same training opportunities as assuming a full-time appointment?

This, i really do not know but the internships at big 4 are definitely well-sought after by many students in the local universities.
In short you are not saying anything

I admitted indeed i do not know anything about this, but then again, are you saying anything constructive?

Quote3: Is it unethical to resign after 6 months, and will it carry ramifications to my employability in the future? I plan to work as a lawyer then hop to management consultancy.

If you are honest to the company that you can commit for 6 months then they will not fault you in any way should you leave the company but chances are, they will not employ you.
Again thats not saying anything.

IF you can read, you should know what my answer implies is that it is ethical to resign after 6 months should you let them know in advance during the interview.

AND by posting the above reply, are you contributing to this thread in anyway or to even clear the doubt of the thread starter?

amazing this kind of bo liao thread can last so long and still got so many people willing to entertain