pay for gov/public sector vs mnc vs sme
 

All this time I thought private companies are offering higher pay compared to gov/public sector, however after working in a SME for 3 years and asking around, I begin to wonder how true that is.

Can anyone shed some light? After 3 years in my job, my pay is still lower than some uniformed group starting pay. If gov sector can provide 10% increment every year, it will still outgrow being in a private sector unless one can climb very fast.

Am I right?

The earning curve is different b/w gov & pte sector lar. Rule of thumb, if you are mediocre, join gov, if you think you have what it takes to be a high flier, go pte.

For farmers gov usually pay higher from start to mid 30s, after that pte will catch up. For high fliers by age 40, pte can pay 3-4x gov pay. The super max a gov farmer can go by retirement is MX9 ~15k, roughly equal to a mid-low level mgr pay in MNC.

15k is a lot more than what people are earning in private sector!
Not to mention now that private sector having a lot of FT as competition.
High fliers, how many can become senior management in a company? Hmm

if gov provides 10% increment yearly it outgrows private sector

That's why I say earlier if you think you are average calibre, better to join gov since got stability and start pay is good.

In a big MNC 15k is roughly a regional function manager for a few countries, quite low on the ladder. Also note that I am comparing high flier pte vs gov sector. In real life most farmers will maximum only hit low end of MX10 ~9k

What about SME? Cause I believe that not everyone can reach that kind of level in MNC. That kind of position I believe usually goes to expats.

i think it all depend on which industry you hail from?

Maybe some high flying overseas scholars can get that amount consistently year-after-year, which is a minor elite group. Don't think average government workers can get that amount of merit increment consistently (i.e.good + bad years).

According to the latest post of this website, an above-average COO / GM at 75 percentile made $15K. According to your definition, a COO is a low level manager. Never mind if there is only 1 COO per private company and there are usually several MX9 in any single government agency. So, where do you think you'll stand a higher chance to get into that level?

How many people can actually hit 10k in their working life?
With the employment outlook so horrible, low wages, would people dare to job hop?

Look here, I have no interest in getting into that whole argument about fake titles, real titles, small co. big co. etc. If you include in SMEs, even ah beng mobile shop boss is called CEO. My friend who runs a small cafe with 4 staff calls himself GM, AFAIK he draws like 4k monthly. 15k basic is only 180k annual, go to any of the HRC salary reports and you will see plenty of positions exceed that.

My point to TS is simple. The world is much bigger than goc jobs. If he thinks he is a strong performer, pte sector grants him plenty of space and opportunity to expand and the potential rewards are much higher than a high performing farmer can ever get in government. If he thinks he is average, dont have the drive to cheong etc, my advice to him was to just opt for civil service.

For people who have worked in big companies, 10k really is nothing much. I'm not trying to be condescending here, but this is a fact.

If you are very concerned about job security, risks, pay volatility etc, my advice to you is just find a decent stable job in gov sector. Nothing wrong with that, its a valid lifestyle choice.

Lest you're going to mislead some young ones, please back your statements with facts that the chances of strong performers who join private sectors can outdo his equally strong peers in government sector consistently year-after-year.

The data obtained is from MOM and typically only respectable companies with proper HR would be involved in the survey. Fake titles are usually printed on name cards. Internal HR records are real title, which is used in the survey.

It's well known to people in the know that administrative officers in the civil service make 300k a year before hitting mid-thirties. Upside is almost unlimited so 300k is just the beginning.

You obviously have no clue how MOM data is obtained. MOM aggregates a wide spectrum of companies and industries and does not go only for respectable companies like you asserted, that would defeat the whole point of the exercise - they are supposed to provide nationwide pay trends, not "respectable companies" pay trends. Contrary to your claim, HRC data is the one that only has "respectable companies" particpate because their high consulting fee acts as a natural barrier to smaller companies.

MOM obtains its data primarily from 3 sources - IRAS, DOS & random sampling. IRAS & DOS provides tom MOM scrambled and anoynomous data points that provide only age, salary and job title. These job titles are reflected in IR8A & submitted by the admin department of each company, they are likely going to be business titles as employees who have interacted with various government agencies such as ICA, MOM throughout the year would have inputed their external title instead of their internal title.

Random sampling by MOM consist of them mailing out survey forms sometimes followed by focus group to random companies and basically ask their admin to self decalre. Anything goes & there is no verification done by MOM on whether the titles reflect their jobs. I did one of those before and I remembered putting myself as Sales Director with a pay of 4.7k because that was my title. My boss was listed as Managing Director, pay 6k. It was a SME & there is no such thing as fake title or real title.

Is MOM data useful as a proxy for the average pay of various jobs in Singapore? I would say yes due to their large sample size & exclusive access to tax filings that covers a wide range of companies & industries.

Is it useful to assess the max pay ceiling of a high performing farmer in pte sector vs gov sector? No, it will severly understate pte sector senior management pay due to the real CEO/COO/CFO/Dept Directors being dragged down by the large number of SME managers with fancy titles.

Just take a step back & look at facts and try to remove emotions because of your personal pay experience or the small sample of friends around you:

Government (High performing farmer)
Salary ceiling at MX9 scale high end of 15k (usually called Director or Senior Director) <-- I think this is public enough and everyone will agree.

Private (High performing farmer)
A few good sources available to estimate earnings potential. Let's start with this report which you yourself shared in another thread just a while ago http://www.robertwalters.com.sg/file...urvey-2012.pdf

Lets pick a random page say page 3 "Accounting & Finance":

Base on the table, a 15k salary (ie 180k p.a.) represents the following jobs:
Tax Manager, Treasury Manager, Commercial Manager, FC or FD for a SME

Any of them sound like senior managerial level to you? Are such jobs going to be the end point of a high performing farmer in pte sector? Extremely unlikely. So what does Robert Walters have to say about real senior managerial jobs with "respectable companies"?

CFO: 250 - 450k Pg3
Banking VP for IB: 300 - 430k Pg5
Banking VP for BO roles: 160 - 350k+ Pg10
HRBP: 200 - 400k Pg17
CTO: 320 - 400k Pg20
Legal for IB: 180 - 400k Pg31
Sales & Marketing GM: 200 - 300k+ Pg25
Head of Global Sourcing: 250 - 300k+ Pg31
Regional Prcourement Director: 200 - 300k Pg31
Supply Chain Director: 200 - 300k Pg31

Another source is to look at senior manager pay in local listed companies. Their pay can be found at the discolsure section of all annual reports. Company Disclosure & Information | SGX

Last I checked most were ranged from 500k - 1M, which is way above what a high performing farmer can ever make in gov jobs.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am not saying such pay is typical of the pte sector, I am just answering TS original question that if you think you are good enough, have the drive to move up corporate ladder and money is very important to you, pte sector will have far greater potential rewards that joining the public sector. If he wants work life balance, cruise along & retire at jnr manager level, public sector would be more appropriate because of security & stability.

this has to be a csb

CFO: 250 - 450k Pg3
Banking VP for IB: 300 - 430k Pg5
Banking VP for BO roles: 160 - 350k+ Pg10
HRBP: 200 - 400k Pg17
CTO: 320 - 400k Pg20
Legal for IB: 180 - 400k Pg31
Sales & Marketing GM: 200 - 300k+ Pg25
Head of Global Sourcing: 250 - 300k+ Pg31
Regional Prcourement Director: 200 - 300k Pg31
Supply Chain Director: 200 - 300k Pg31


How many people can reach such a level in an MNC?
Even for FC/FD, is limited.

In order to support that 3 EOs, there will be many dept below them headed by regional managers, following that managers, and then senior/execs and assistants.

Pay wise:-
If comparing CS vs average SME - CS is likely better
If comparing CS vs big name local firms - CS likely not on par
If comparing CS vs MNC - CS farmers are simply not even on same list/chart/statistics regardless of titles. Only the AOs are comparable.

Well said!

I'm afraid that would be something you have to answer for yourself. My aim is to correct some obvious misconceptions such as 10k very rare in pte sector, COO/GM is paid only 15k etc. You will need to take an honest look at yourself & determine if you have the capabilities & motivation to get there, for sure it will be very competitive & not easy.

If not, honestly joining gov is probably best for you. As long as no major screw up, minimally can retire at MX10 Dy Director level ~8k+ which is not bad. There are after all lots of pte sector ppl who end up jobless at 40+yrs old.

Ya, my main concern is ending up jobless at 40+. That is when we have family, kids and retired parents to consider.
Coming from a neighbourhood school, poly, and DL degree, really doubt can compete with the scholars in private sector.

In my company (US MNC), engineers and sales guys are paid between 100K to 200K.
Directors are paid 200K to 300K. Senior execs inc. senior director, VP and SVP are paid 400K onwards. Almost everyone around me are on 6-figures package.

My first job was in a stat board. Had miserable increment and decided to join private. Started with a local SME and then a MNC. 8 years on, pay is 5 to 7 times the pay in stat board.

and what is your profession?

Why are you worried about scholars in pte sector? They really only matter when you are in CS. In the pte sector, many succeed in high paying jobs without being scholars. Sadly, I am not one of them T_T

Lol. You must be very free to write such long essay. Definitely, the top earners come from private sector. Look at top surgeons, top legal eagles, top IB bankers etc. No doubt about that. Even some ministers commented that they had earned more at private sectors. If you follow my statement carefully, I've mentioned keywords "consistency" and "chances" e.g. only 1 COO per private company vs many MX9 in any single agency.

Forgot to add, as you mentioned these are HR recruitment firms and it's well-known that their best interests can be served by inflating salaries. Take those figures with a pinch of salt. And the hiring outlook that they published tend to be more optimise than actual norm. Or else who would want to look for new jobs? I remember I quoted banking outlook in some IB wannabe threads, which was fairly optimal in their reports. My HR business owner friend (who specialise in finance/banking) is telling me that IB recruitment is almost quiet as dead.

there is no shortage of mid level positions in the private sector that pays more than mx9...
path to mx9 probably takes a while but it's almost a sure thing over time..

but in the private sector, there's no rigid pay structure... you can get a bump in your paycheck when you get a lucky break.. or you can get stuck at a range for a while...

but the uncertainty is fun.... as your network of contacts widens.. it may lead you to new opportunities with bigger payout at the end..

I am curious. If you are in accounts dept, how do you widen the network of contacts in your industry if stuck in a desk bound job?

Nice try to switch the topic. I have emphasized I think numerous times to TS (I am sure he will be glad to affirm) that chances of reaching senior levels are low and such numbers are not relfective of typical experience. My main point is to rebut your erronous assertion that MOM pay trends are reflective of only "respectable companies" and crazy stuff like 15k is the 75 percentile of a COO.

You have totally not followed up with these claims you callously put up earlier at all & instead went on to harp about "consistency" in gov service. Excuse me, we get it, gov job has better job secrutiy & fixed promotion path etc. We all know that & I doubt that is news to any layman on the street.

This lengthy write up is in response to your call earlier to back my claims up with solid data, which I have done so by providing a link to an archive of public remuneration discolusre and a sample of a Robert Walters report. Instead of either conceeding the point because of the overwhelming evidence or gathering rebutting facts & data, you choose to laugh it off by making a snide remark like "Lol. You must be very free to write such long essay." That line about sums up everything about you.

“Well known” by who? You, yourself & yours again?

Come on, you are always making allegations about statistical data providers without furnishing any evidence at all. Earlier was the rubbish about MOM ( a nationwide ministry, mind you) publishing jobs & pay data that are only polling for “respectable companies”.

Now we learn from your latest rhetoric that HRC reports are “inflating salaries” i.e. you are alleging Robert Walters is lying in its jobs report to further commercial interest. This is a serious charge & while the anonymousness of online interaction shields you from litigation, it is only responsible that you demonstrate that there is a sound basis for making such serious charges.

Saying this is supposedly a “well known” fact like handing out commandments from Mt Horeb might convince some innocent newbie undergrad, but cuts no ice with experienced folks at all.

Woah guys, chill. Try not to turn this thread into a flame war.
Thanks

good to have some information debate around, better than all those useless one-liners...

Accounts no need network, most important is to get your ACCA / CPA & min 2 years exp in a big 4 co.

With the bad economy situation coming up, I am also going for CS after graduation next year, can always jump back to private once the economy is good.

SE in IT industry

pay is depend on yourself, cannot generalise public sector mnc and sme.

Mnc > cs > sb > sme

Yup! 1 line sums it up.

If Mnc mistreat you, you kpkb gahmen come kapo, everything explode.

If Cs mistreat you, everyone sua siao.

If "uncle-alibaba-and-john-sam enterprise&co" bully you, nothing will happen, you alone cant make enough noise for anything to happen also. And if anything happens they always have "samba-uncle-and-john-baba llp", repeat this forever for ultra low wages and maximum profit!

You compare small local businessman/family shop pay with the gov/public sector that recieve hundred billion tax revenue yearly? Wake up please...

Agree, thats why very surprise the TS work 3 years already still so naive & think SME pay higher than CS.