Banking - Back Office
 

Anyone know the market rate for fresh grad joining bank in back office?

For fresh grad.. can be anywhere from 1.8k to 3k... Depend on what class of honors graduate you are and which bank you are joining...

1.8k ??? Such an amount sounds like it's from the 80s.

I put 2.8 for a local bank. too much or too little?

If I wanna negotiate how should I go about it?
Sorry man entry level, very amateur.

What lvl of education do you have? For this year jun-aug intake, dbs paying 3.8k and standchart paying 4k for NUS/NTU/SMU grads for operations back office.

OMG are you serious?
My friend is in Stanchart Ops MA and he got 4k that one I know.

I'm from NTU Engineering.

Mine is just an entry level associate position.
I don't think the pay scale is that high right?

spend hedirat
 

Im not sure about the bank's pay scheme. I can only share what i know.

Just curious, I thought fresh grad entry is at analyst-level?

3.8k seems like the salary for their graduate programme. Can confirm again?

Fresh grad entry might be significantly lower as my friend was offered 2.7k for DBS back office position in O&T.

I think different banks name their entry level positions differently.
However the function and job scope should be similar.

Ya those high 3s to 4 salary seemed to be for grad progs.
I'm not too sure myself.
Therefore hope I can get some insight here.

DBS 3.8k is ops graduate program. Yes I heard the same, less than 3k for direct hires.

I have been working for about 5 years in banking. My start was 4-4.5k.

GF works in local bank ops her start was 2-2.5k. My cousin's wife worked in foreign bank Ops. Start 3.2k.

In general:

Program hire (e.g. the Stanchart MA program you talked about): 3,500-4,200k.

DBS, UOB, OCBC, Maybank, CIMB (basically SG + MY banks): Direct entry from school. 2.2-3k.

Stanchart/Citi/HSBC: 2.6-3.2k for direct hire into ops.

Investment banking ops: JPM, CS, UBS, BOFA/ML, DB: 3.4-3.8k

If in foreign bank starting pay 4k. How much can I expect after one promotion?

Since when I say foreign bank starting pay is 4k? I said program hire (i.e MA program). If you are direct entry into commercial, consumer, corp bank ops be prepared for 2-3k range. Annual increment about 150-250 dollars (without promotion)

Since when I quote you? I'm just asking if starting pay 4k in ops. How much can I expect to get from one promotion as i will be promoted soon and I have a starting pay of 4k

From what level to what level? AM to M?

Low level promo $500-1500

Thanks for sharing these valuable numbers. So you must a program hire, and like from Stanchart MA? :)

Ok thanks for the info!

Maybe I will neg for a 3 from 2.8 to try my luck.

But my associate position is a 1 year rotational position among several ops div at the start.
Will that constitute as a "program"?

Yeah.. MA from one of those banks I have listed. All of us had to spend some time in Operations so we made some friends in Ops and they shared with us their lives.

I would say that Ops are pretty overworked and underpaid. Pity though because they contribute significantly to the bank. Thats why when I was in ops, I realise everyone was *ahem* sensitive topic. . Non-Singaporeans. The Singaporeans there are mainly those from *ahem* another sensitive topic.. SIM / Part-time degrees. Poly. Those who didn't do well in NTU/SMU/NUS. Or those from unrelated courses like arts.

Alot of uncles and aunties also. Those in their late 30s, 40s. No more bargaining power. Bank treats them like ****.

How bad? I saw one uncle receive $500 bonus a few years ago when I was in the department. He was late 50s and his wife had cancer. He actually retired already but the cancer wiped out his entire savings. Went back to work in OPS. No more bargaining power. . probably paid $2k? Needed the bonus badly as he hoped to bring his wife for a short trip to Malaysia.

When he went into the room. He didn't say anything. When he came out he couldn't hold back anymore and cried. Initially I admitted in my mind I was "LOL", because of Bonus cry is abit extreme right? Then when I talked to him and he told me what he needed the money for I felt very bad. I spoke to the department head and the department head told me that actually this year NO BONUS. The $500 came out from his own pocket.

Then I realise... I'm never going to stay in Ops. Work till 40 then what? No progression. No more bargaining power. Got young and cheap grads + FT to replace you anytime. Not happy leave la.. the bank happier!

Sorry abit off topic.. just remembered this incident and got abit emotional writing this.

That is just sad to hear.

Look at the highlighted line. Unrelated arts programs, nus fass econs isn't one of them right?
I'm just curious since i will soon be taking that up. But so far everything seems gloomy. Correct me if i'm wrong?

It seems like ops in banks does not have a good reputation, just wondering, when people speak about bank ops is it just ops or does it include technology since O&T goes hand in hand together.

BC used to pay 54K p.a. before bonuses.
Now the salary structure is different.

You should put it on your shortlist.

Different bank, different titles.

Are the prospects that bad?
I'm considering a career in Ops.

But the feedback is really unfavourable.

Avenger
 

Hi just to contribute some of my opinions after working a number of years in
banking..

I disagree that Ops has no prospects or proper career path. U still can go up the ranks such as AVP, VP, SVP, managing director, executive director etc (diff banks diff structure & titles) Even if u're in Ops, u still can make 200k-300k p.a. when u become senior (possibly even more if u're capable)

Money aside, Ops in general doesn't have a gd name becos the work is normally repetitive, mundane, long hours, does not require much interaction with clients/humans (other than getting scolding from front office bankers/traders), typically are not involved in/required to understand financial markets and lastly, seen as a "cost centre" to front office bankers because Ops is not generating revenue.

I work on a trading desk and I can see how vastly different my colleagues treat people from Ops versus traders/salespeople from other banks. They are curt/rude to Ops while polite and courteous to front office people from other banks in general. I find this banking culture very shallow & silly. Without people in Ops, banks cannot operate nor survive. Unfortunately, most front office people still see themselves as superior over the Ops guys.

This culture is probably worse in foreign banks compared to local banks. Like all things in life, nothing is perfect. So though banking ops roles are not the most desirable jobs to have (at least based on what i shared) they still pay very well compared to most other industries. And u get to wear nice nice and sashay into your swanky office towers in down town, plus tell your friends i work in Barclays/JPM/UBS etc etc.

I would say it's worth a try if u can't get any other "better" roles. But try not to stay for too long in backoffice. Try and do an internal transfer or apply to other firms (after 1 or 2 years) for something that is closer to the front office. eg. trade support, risk management, research etc.

You talk positives on ops but you are in front office. Have you seen a front office person aspire to get into ops? Probably not but I'm sure you have heard of the countless of Ops who try desperately to break out into front office.

It is precisely the repetitive nature and low level work that hinders your progress and development. How many in Ops rise up the ranks? Main issue is that your job scope is repetitive and almost akin to a factory line worker of a manufacturing firm. Easily replacable.

If I enter ops in DBS ops grad program or Standchart ops grad program, will I have a better career path in ops or I will suffer the same fate as other ops ppl?

To my understanding banks will groom those in grad programs even if it's ops grad program. Can anybody give me advice on this?

Not to discourage anyone from taking Econs but unless your are the top of your cohort it will be difficult to find a job.

As mentioned, I was a MA in one of those banks mentioned. In my time, there are some MAs designated under the Ops program. Why? Because no MA wanted a career path through ops. Everyone wanted to go front office or at least middle office. These Ops MA are intended to rise up through the ranks to assume department head roles in back office.

Under such a program, the Ops MA indeed have a better career path. You must understand that from a selection point of view, the criteria for hiring that Ops MA is the same for the other MAs. Minimum 2nd upper honors, usually first class. 6-7 rounds of interviews. Meet CEO. That Ops MA also gets sent overseas for training just like the other MAs of the cohort. He/she also gets the rotation programs and he is regarded as a true program hire.

Now it works differently for every bank. Some bank have a Graduate hire program for Ops and it is different from their MA program. This is just a generic term and there is no really true program. It is just like any other graduate hire program. In this case you are no different from normal hires.

A simple test is to reflect on your interview process. If you got in easy, you are not under any program.

I just gt offered the Standchart ops management trainee program. There were 2 online tests, one hr interview n 2 interviews with the line managers. Is this considered a true program?

Dont sound like it

can someone clarify which depts are:

- front
- middle and
- back?

That's a huge worry for me then. Can fellow contributors shed some light as to what jobs are available for econs grads? Perhaps an estimation of the salary as well?

I am thinking of getting cfa or other professional certification in when i'm closing in to uni grad. Will that help in my future career prospect?

What are your career options graduating from Econs? Not talking about everything under the sun but realistic/relevant/practical options?

1. Become an economist. Where? MAS or in-house Economist (sell-side, in banks) or a similar research function at fund managers (e.g. GIC)

2. Related functions within financial services. You don't aspire to do Ops so it is mainly the front office positions. Sales/Trading? Not likely. They prefer more quant background. No added advantage at all for your econs major. Corp Finance? Not likely. They prefer accounting/banking finance. Equities? Perhaps. But equal footing against accounting/b&f.


For 1, there is a very limited number of such jobs. Hence you need to be really creme of the crop. Also, most houses want to hire experienced economist and rarely have any graduate program. This narrows down your chances of starting well.

For 2, there is no added advantage of Econs. Maybe even disadvantage since some depts/roles consider Econs as akin to Arts (i.e General Degree). I think in NUS, Econs is under Arts fac?

generally most ntu/nus degrees will land you a job in civil service where you won't be poor but you wont get rich also. jobs like econs teacher, financial writer for bloomberg/sph come to mind. You can try applying to MAS, MTI, CPF, IRAS too. You do know that different service tracks (financial, generalist etc.) in civil service are paid differently right - the financial or professional track being paid slightly higher.

I think if you want to earn mega huge salaries its probably easier by being a property agent. I mean that not as a slight to you but realistically speaking. Everyone wants to get into investment banking but like as the guy above me said, there are so many people chasing after that limited pool of jobs and these are already the cream of the crop. your resume might not even go pass HR even.

Front: Generally client facing. Revenue generating. Usually in-charge of a client portfolio / have revenue targets. Example, sales & trading, corp fin, research, corporate RM, GTS sales, Wealth mgmt RM, Personal banking RM

Middle: Support functions like Finance, Risk, Legal, Accounting

Back: Operations & Technology

Hey yes, it is offered under Arts. However I am aiming to graduate with Social Science (hons) instead. Frankly I find Arts pretty ridiculous to graduate with the basic requirements stated.

But anyway, I believe econs will instill critical analytical skills which will be crucial when i progress to finance/ trading area. Hence explaining why i am looking at taking up CFA prog. Just wondering will taking CFA help in this sense?(I haven't been as far in life compared to you guys, so i ask for your humble opinions on this) Also, econs will do myself good when i am doing personal trading.

Although i know school seminars are pretty much a big scam, but there was this graduate (graduated not long ago) invited to share his experiences. He is currently working in one of the big 4 in sg, and he graduated with BA(econ). Perhaps he's one in a million, but just wondering, what do you think he is working as? (I apologize if this question sounds illogical)

Hey wern, that is something that hasn't come to my mind yet.
Yes, totally agree with your first paragraph. What i deter is to get stuck in a miserable position for ages and retire in manner. Imagine life in the same position for 10years for instance, never promoted, no pay rise, no opportunity to perform. That, to me, equates to wasting my life.

I guess putting in effort followed with experiences gained, that should open the option to look for better prospect? Is that how it works?

Just to side track a little, I guess connections matter more than what's reflected on paper. I have a friend who's 1 year my senior. She schooled in SIM UOL for banking and finance, which her father had already began training her (on market stuff/ finance i'm not so sure about the specifics) since she was 16. Upon graduation, she got into c*t*Bank as her first job. In less than 6mths, she went on to work at erm, well established private bank (which normally accepts people with a certain years of experience) and once again, in less than 9 months, she's now in B**c*** working happily.

I think in her case, she's one in a billion where her career progression is like on steroids.

If you're feeling brave, put in a ridiculously low amount, just so that you'll get questioned about it.

Or put in negotiable.

What businesses want is a set of skills at a ridiculously low price. If you put 2.8, and they have 3.5 in the budget, congratulations, you've just cut off 0.7 for yourself. If you put 3.6, congratulations again, you've just disqualified yourself.

So, before putting a figure in there, think about what it means, if you're the one running the business. Then, put on your thinking hat as a candidate again, and I'm sure now, you've a better idea what to put.