is my civil service pay progression fast/slow/normal?
 

Really need some help from the more experienced people here as I'm considering a new job offer.

First the facts. I'm 34 now, 2nd upper honors degree grad working at a stat board for the last 5 years, MX12 all the way with no promotion in sight, and am getting $4662 now. Doing a masters degree, expecting completion next year.

My history:

Job 1 (2003- Jan 2006):
A ministry
Starting pay MX13 $3000
Leaving pay MX12 $3312

Job 2 (Feb 2006 - Sep 2006):
A research institute
Starting pay $3600
Leaving pay $3600

Current Job 3 (Sep 2006 - now):
A stat board
Starting pay MX12 $3300
Current pay MX12 $4662

Is this progression normal? I am aware my increments in the current job seem high, but at the same time discussion with friends of my age group and qualifications seem to show that many of them are getting higher.

Now I've just got a new job offer with a pay of $4100, and the annual package is lower too. HR people of course tell me, 'there're lots of things to learn and the skills will benefit your portfolio'., but of course the same could be said of any job. I'm wondering if I should take it, or will it be a step backwards that I cannot recover from? Do all new jobs peg the pay offered to your last drawn pay? In that case would it be possible to keep drawing lower and lower pay with every job you change?

Hi Miwashi, I think your current pay is slightly below average. And the last drawn is an important factor in determining your renumeration offer.

Unless you have really strong passion for the new job, I will certainly not accept such a significantly lower pay. It will not only be a step or two backwards, but also become a resume stain. Future employers will certainly judge you negatively for it.

Besides, in this current tight labour market you should be aiming for higher, not lower.

Thank you.. was wondering what should be the average pay for people my age and qualifications?

I only got 2 job offers in the last 5 years, and both undercut my pay by $800-1000, their reasons being that I was 'quite overpaid already'. The one that undercut first is a ministry, the current one is a public health and medical group, not government.

Are any HR people able to shed light on how the pay offered is calculated?

I'm not from HR. But my experience is that companies will either match or offer a higher salary if they find your working experience relevant. You should try to look for something that is similar in nature to what you're doing now. If you manage to get a job with another Ministry, negotiate for MX11.

Your current salary might seem lower than average compared to others of your age. But I also note that you only started working at 27. So, taking that into account, I think you're earning OK. There will always be people earning more. I know of people, graduates and in their 30s, earning about your level.

The thing is, I'm in a stat board now and the work is very generic. No specific focus, so it's hard to classify a speciality. I did get an offer at a ministry for another administrative position, but since administration is broad, their HR tried to negotiate saying I am from a different sector so the experience is not really relevant, thus the $1000 pay cut.

Does anyone know HR's recruitment criteria for direct recruitment into MX11? I've been where I am almost 5 years already at MX12, and I am wondering if this will be reset if I quit and join another ministry; will it be another 5 years++ before I am considered for MX11? How do ministries decide whether to recruit people from the private sector into MX11 grade? Is there some specific attribute or years of experience required?

Another thing.. I'm expecting to complete my masters next year; stat boards/ministrys don't do individual reviews of salary based on new qualifications, do they? So I should expect to look for another job again next year in order to gain a possible increment?

I have 2 days to decide if I should go for this job or not. My current job pays better but it has absolutely zero prospects, the new job is a really substantial pay cut and the prospects are also suspect, but a little better than the current.
Can anyone advice? I am 34 years old and almost at the point where I cannot change jobs anymore because employers do not consider me young anymore, so that is a factor too.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5179/...8f9bb772_o.jpg

sounds like an interesting job.

are you sure you are a grass cutting manager in a stat board?

yes, in terms of functional role.
on paper i'm a 'manager'

If you stay in your current job, you will always be comfortable. You won't be a millionaire, or at least you might take a while, but you will never starve either. You can probably own a car, pay off your house, buy a second property, etc when you are in your mid-forties. That's the reality. On the other hand, you appear disinclined toward your new job because of the pay differential. I believe you need to look at it more holistically, in terms of career earnings and not just annual pay. If you progress faster in your new job, or if it provides opportunity for you to move to other better paying jobs in the future, your career earnings may well be far better than in your current job. Unfortunately, that's what you will have to predict for yourself.

Frankly speaking, I am certain you know all the above. The choice is between guaranteed comfort and a small risk for potentially better prospects. You know that too. None of us can help you choose, because none of us know what you want in your life.

But if you are asking us to give you our opinion of what we would do in your situation, I would take up the new offer. Your progression in your current job is quite poor; you are aware that scholars are promoted much faster and their pay increases much faster. Some graduates in their late 20s already earn twice what you do. If you remain in your current job, you will always be second fiddle to them. Because I am ambitious, I would never be comfortable with that, so I would go to another place which offers me a chance to rise faster.

Thank you so much for the input. I agree that it is a gamble taking on any new job, even more so when it involves a substantial pay cut.

The thing that is making it difficult is the fact that I'm doing a masters degree now. I don't expect a pay increase as I know it's just fluff to add shine to your cv, but I don't know if taking a masters should also equate to the likes of losing around 5 years of increments, especially when your masters is somewhat relevant to the new job.

Plus I don't think companies review pay of existing staff and offer you an increase once you complete a new qualification; they only give increases upon promotions, which may be many many years away.

gesaga iffa
 

i'm sorry about your plight.. a degree holder doing job scope no different from my estate bangla workers. biology is really one dead industry in sillypore. i appreciate your efforts to draw out your own pay progression. if pay is a main concern, try to get out of biology. you have to forgo either passion or renumeration.

my advice is:

1. transit horizontally within your workplace.
2. take up other positions in public health.
3. take up teaching career

my friend in biology now doing research admin in a local uni.... occassionally have to teach or become teacher's assistant. paywise not too sure, but the job scope gives lots of room for future improvement.

if you need the money, stay on your current high paying job. btw, imho masters will not add much value to your pay package. cheers.

Hi miwashi,

Its so surreal to hear your story. I have been in the same boat as you for a few years now. In a government job, secure, and earning a somewhat similar pay.

I had an offer last year that pays around the same as my last drawn, and is definitely a stepping stone back to the industry.

I rejected it because I chose stability over potential. I charted out my progression in my current job and compared it to what it could have been, the best case, the worst case and the average case. Then I ask myself if I want to take the gamble. The new job is unstable. I will be starting a new line of business. Challenging, but it might fail.

In the end, I chose to stay put. My reasons are as follow, and in no order of priority.

1. Family
2. An ability to forecast future salary. I didn't like the number I forecasted, but felt that it was enough for comfortable living.
3. An opportunity to buid my own investment portfolio for passive income. The fact is, out there in the industry, they want 100% of your time. You don't even have the time to think about anything apart from work.

Will I regret my decision? I don't know... but a decision is a decision. Make it, stick with it. Let us know what you chose eventually!

let me give u one point to think about...

why did u accept your current job
and how will you convince your interviewer you have skills that can used in your next role beyond your educational qualifications ?

and if they are not persuaded then the reality question is why should you be prefered over a fresh grad whom is willing to work at a lower rate...

bro,i am stating above not to put u down...but i will think these were the factors why your next role job offer is low....

final question r u willing to work like mad to succeed in the new role to achieve the things u r so desiring ?

i ask because i switch jobs a couple of times...and i ask myself the above as honest as i can because after all i been thorough, i can say honestly there is no free lunch to higher pay..... every job that got me a better pay was paid wih more time and effort and less play at work...

Maybe focus on finishing your master first, once finished, u either:

- Stay put at ur current job, but things must change, either u should be aggresively looking for promotion or persevere there, sooner or later you will get it.

- Jump ship to private companies, the issue is whether you can talk your way through the interview, in terms of salary should not be much of pay cut. Beautify your resume, train your speaking skills and dress well for interview, good luck :)

Well, the reason why I took up my current job was because during the interview they cast it as a knowledge-based position using all kinds of fancy terms ('statistical analysis, policy making, event planning, etc'.).

On my first day of work they told me there was a reorg the previous week and I was being placed in a branch handling maintenance of neighbourhood playgrounds. Hence my job scope involving picking up rubbish and grasscutting now.

Looking back I should have quit on day 1 but at that time I was really scared of burning bridges. Now 5 years later I realize it's a really rubbish organization and I defnitely must leave, but the thing now is, go where? I am confident that my quality of work produced (i try to get involved with real work done by other branches whenever possible to add to my cv, eg. writing manuals, drafting articles, etc.) is worth more than the pay cut they offered, and even have writing samples. The company that offered me the cut agreed that the samples were good and relevant, but stil a $800 cut..

how do you know if you're not jumping from one rubbish org to another rubbish org? and with a pay cut to boot.

from my personal experience, most orgs are rubbish, but some are better because they pay more. for example, MNCs pay you a lot more to handle the rubbish, nonsense, risk of losing job, and office politics crap.

hi,
since u are ready to quit... then here is my killer move

1. go to talk to your ceo or someone with real power...and ask for a bigger role
2. explain you have done all you can and will really like to do more
including policy planning etc or even a transfer to another ministry
3. write in to feedback at ministry level

if really no change in your role after 3 months... then u know its crap orgn

sometimes boss try to be too nice in civil service and then think everyone is happy doing small role with stable income...

from the way i see it... u have nothing to lose doing above since u know u r worth more than your current pay grade... its good to rock the boat when u know u can swim or find another one to jump....

but do so soon and nicely.....noone like a rude and angry empolyee..and u never know how long this supposedly bull run economy can last...

I would definitely not advise someone with a biology degree to quit a $74,592 p.a. job. $74,592 p.a. salary is very high for a biology graduate. The only reason for studying biology is to get into medicine otherwise it has no value. There will be hundreds of biology graduates eyeing this job if it ever becomes vacant.

Well, I turned down the offer. The pay cut was too great, plus I think it will look bad if a "manager", exaggerated as my title is, becomes a junior executive after working for 8 years.

I just hope I can get another job soon as I still plan to quit after the april bonus.

Will you ever bite the bullet, quit without a job and then go out to hunt for a new career?

I ask because you are drawing a comfortable pay, and to get the same pay in the private sector, you need to have at least a few years of experience in what they are hiring you for. I was in the exact situation a few years ago and till date, still can't find anything that gives me the reason to move from my comfort zone.

I think for a case like this, enduring low salary for at least 2 years or so seems to be the way to go. I didn't dare to take the plunge...

I had 8 years in the public and went through the same considerations before taking a deep cut to start a career in the finance industry. If you are hang up about title (way inflated in the public sector) and pay, you will never switch because the rule of thumb to how much you get is you must generate at least 4 times your salary. An average manager with 8 years in the public sector easily takes in $100k per annum, to do the same in the consultancy business, you would need to manage or bring in $400k worth of projects/sales alone. No an easy task for a guy who is new into his career.

The bright side of things is the private sector is more performance-sensitive. If you are capable, the compensation catches up in the blink of an eye.

Good luck.

How did you manage to switch from public to finance?

I am trying to figure out why employers offer me jobs with $1000 pay cuts now. Does anyone know, in a stat board, what does the yearly increment incorporate? Does it have a

1. basic increment of 5%
2. additional component for good aptitude in work?

The reason I ask is because my increment is not the same every year. It was like this

Year 2: +$400
Year 3: +$300
Year 4: +$195


If I can understand this, then maybe I can figure out why other employers are offering me jobs with $1000 pay cuts

You are really overpaid considering the job requirement of picking up rubbish and grasscutting. The job also give you the stability and time to pursue a master degree. For every month you stay in your current job, you have gain vis-a-vis the people who are paying your salary. Stay long enough to reach the top of your salary scale and you can switch off since you have an iron rice bowl. The best thing is you are better than many others who have more demanding work and a lower pay. The salaries you were offered gave you an indication of the market rates. You should seriously think over whether you really want to quit.
Hope you get over it and reach a conclusion soon.

Unsolicited Advice
 

Hi Miwashi,

I've just read this thread with tremendous interest; I am also in the public service and like you was originally duped into the "wrong position". After suffering for 2 years, what I did was sought a secondment in a different division (Much nearer the Gods); here, I've received a much higher profile - and with that a full time transfer (& subsequently promotion). I'm a year or 2 older than you, and now pull about $100k a year in a middle management position.

Since you have not spared us the details of your employers I'll go out on a limb and make some suggestions:

1) Policy & Planning is always high exposure - Kim Goh's unit looks quite thin.

2) I don't know if with the impending opening of Gardens by the Bay (high profile), you may be able to find something there

3) International relations is also high profile; Work at NBC might also be right up your alley.

Please don't listen to all the naysayers talk abt biology degrees. Good Luck.

I'm guessing you just need to drop this guy an email to kick things off... Head/Training & Development SHAMRIL bin Jamil

hmm.. what makes you think i work there? I work in a grasscutting organization.

From your job description, it really do sound like you work for NPARK.... or NEA.

So from your description I guess I'm not getting that much after all? If you're around 2 years older than me,how did you get around $25000 more a year? Is there a huge pay jump when you go from MX12 to MX11, or does your pay more or less increment normally (ie $200 a year) while the pay cap jumps?

He may already be on MX10, which means he has been promoted twice since joining the civil service. But there's no need to feel discouraged by the salary gap. Lots of people earn more than you. The opposite is, however, also true.

it is very discouraging as I have never been promoted at all anywhere after working for 8 years. I don't think my performance is bad as I usually get a 2-2.5 month bonus.

So when you go from MX12 to MX11 there is a significant salary jump compared to a regular increment without advancing to the next grade?

You should try out some of the advice given by other forummers such as asking for transfer to another department.

There is a salary jump, which would be significant for those whose salary is still far from the lower band of the grade to which they are promoted. If you are already within the salary range of the next grade, I think the jump is probably akin to another increment, which may not be insignificant too.

I've asked for transfers 3 times over the last 5 years plus, each time I never hear anything after that. I get the idea that my boss doesn't want to let me leave the branch I'm in (it is almost entirely grasscutter types with lower education), that's why I'm already trying to get out by resigning.

Hi - based on your descriptions I can probably pinpoint the division you come from; and based on your designation, I can probably narrow you down to 1 of 10 managers; if I knew your gender, I could probably narrow it down to 1 of 3 males or 7 ladies. The govt directory is great :)

But I shan't digress. Our stat board doesn't subscribe to the MX scheme... ours is slightly different... I'm a couple of grades from superscale, but 4 grades up from being a fresh grad.

Now I don't know if you want any unsolicited advice; but I'm gonna give it anyway;

Whichever company you work for, the bottom line is delivering high enough a value add to justify a promotion. litter doesn't get you promoted. I observe that your analytical and writing far exceed those of many of your colleagues, I'm sure, bosses included.

Use those skills.

Prepare policy papers, attend meetings at MND; get yourself invited to your board meetings & exco meetings. OR get yourself seconded to a department that has these duties. Which Director goes to MND all the time? find him and ask for a job. suggesting that your potential and abilites are underutilised is the best reason to land a secondment. (a. you flatter the hiring manager by suggesting how impt he is, and b. show genuine interest in the nparks strategy).

Now should you decide to leave - why not try another stat board; you won't get a pay cut and the upside is likely to be there. I suggest waiting till May when the game of merry go round is played following the PB announcements.

Good luck - esp if your boss has BS as initials.

Thank you for the advice. I also believe litter won't get you promoted; ultimately everything has similar effort, so I should be doing something meaningful AND getting recognized for it. Just like everywhere else, same effort, small projects, small people, and big projects, big people, who can help you next time.

I don't think I won't get a pay cut if I go to another board; in these 5 years after 262 applications and 40 interviews I've gotten only 2 offers, and both came with the $800-1000 pay cuts I mentioned earlier on. Some of the interviewers even laughed when I explained what I did here. And these are not interviewers from the private sector!

In the place I'm at I noticed being secretaries at meetings gets you noticed, even though you're doing nothing much other than advancing slides and taking minutes - which in my opinion is another useless skill as you are immediately obsoleted by a tape recorder. I was involved in a lot of these last time, and I think I did it well as I produced the gold standard (as described by some ministries) of having minutes out in less than 24 hours. But I'm not involved anymore.. I don't miss it though, though I actually liked it (I do like writing), I'd rather be developing useful skills that have value in the real world; that's the bottomline.

I did attend some meetings at the palace long ago though, but all I did was prepare the slides for the big D who presented it, and advance the slides for him. The elites there probably didn't even know who I was at the end of it all.

At the end of it all, after 5 years here (and 2.5 years in a ministry before this) I am still just one grade up from a fresh grad of MX13. My peers at the ministry (we are all the same age, joined as fresh grads together back then) reached MX11 2 years ago.

BTW are you from the organization you think I'm from?

Nope... far far away my friend - different ministry too.

From your story, sounds like you've got a mediocre CEP grade. The good news is that CEPs are not cast in stone. all you need to do is impress the right person a couple of times.

RE: Minutes - I think many public servants don't get that writing minutes is meant to gain exposure into Sr. Management thought processes. (note: pls take minutes for KEY meetings; not the ones involving only directors); I've just moved up from writing to vetting minutes; but the pain is not forgotten... in hindsight, I think it was a great opportunity.

I think writing is a valuable asset in stat boards, as is speaking; how comfy are you with presentations? a lil' confidence in bringing across a good point can go a long way in establishing ur credibility as a worker.

I am no high flyer - & obviously too far behind to join the admin service; but I think I do all right for myself just by being a bit more proactive than some of my colleagues. I'm sure you can too.

Ah. that's the thing. I probably have some savant syndrome, and it's not in showmanship, probably one of the key necessities for high CEP. I'm just a writer, that's why my career of choice is in publications and editorial, and that's not what most boards and ministries offer.

Anyway I won't be waiting till may to job hunt, everyday is a job hunting day to me. With all that talk about raising Singaporeans' income by 30%, I'll be happy with a job offer that doesn't cut more than $500.

Whom have u approached for a transfer? If it's HR or ur boss it doesn't count. You need to proactively find the department, speak to the director, and only after he/she is convinced of wanting to hire you that u let the hiring D contact your Manager (AD?)

I am from a stat board too. From where I come from, people don't get promoted until their salary hit n% of the grade's ceiling.

I think that's silly because then nobody will start working hard until they are near that n%.

You know that guy called BS?

1. haha... actually I see some of my Ds and have no idea how they get there... (if eloquence is a key criteria) I don't think it's a necessity, it's just a big plus... (which in turn explains how those Ds with no substance gets where they are).

2. I don't know BS (I hear alot of it :)

3. Yet another piece of unsolicited advice: How I think I got my promotion, was because of my boss. How credible your boss is in fighting for your 2-3 consecutive B grades during the ranking exercise will undoubtedly contribute towards how successful you are in your career. My then boss has also since been promoted (next in line to the throne)... so here it is plain & simple: Work well for the golden boy & the rewards will be easier to attain.

4. Another thing about your current role; you do unfortunately portray it in the worst possible light here, I'm curious if you do the same on you CV & during interviews? Coz' I would really suggest some spin doctoring... eg. do you really measure trees; or do you manage a team of of staff responsible for collecting data on flora in Singapore - subsequently collating & analysing the data for senior management to make proactive strategic decisions on the landscape in our community parks?