settle for an engineering course or retake exam?
 

Hello everyone, I have a place in NUS's mech eng. There are many things on my mind that I wish to get opinions for.

After reading the threads here, it seems, in general, engineers are underappreciated and underpaid. Given that I'm in NS at the moment, I have intentions to retake my A levels to qualify for harder-to-get-in courses such as B A, accountancy. Then again, will such a degree be more valuable?

People say that a mech eng degree is rather flexible. Which industries can they be employed besides the financial sector? Will a 2nd upper do?

Does a mech eng degree offer a decent level of financial upward mobility? Can any kind soul hit me with the facts and figures?

I heard that a private candidate of the local GCSE A levels will not be subjected to the same moderation that local JCs get. Hence the former's certificate is not as recognised/valued. Is it true?

Comments are highly appreciated. Thank you!

People here can tell you about Engineering and Financial markets for now and maybe project 6-9 months max down the road, but nobody can tell you what the labour market would be like after 5-6 years when you finish NS and Uni.

Industrial trends are notorious to predict and their labour supply & demand is impacted by even more factors that are beyond prediction. All you will get are many individual opinions from different people, not much use for your case if you ask me.

Saying that, I can only emphasize to you that Accountancy is completely different from Banking/Finance, do not make the decision to study Accountancy on the basis that you will be working in the banking/investment/management consultancy field.

Thank you for the your words of advice Sir.

Take the course that you can score better in. Seeing that you have to retake your A Levels, am I right to say that you didn't do very well? Be honest with yourself. What subjects are you weaker than your peers? Which subjects do you have an advantage?

I had decent but not perfect A level grades. I had peers much smarter than me that went engineering. Looking at the content and workload, engineering appeared considerably tougher than banking finance/ accountancy. Plus, they were constantly outdone by Chinese, Vietnam and Indian talents. Since my uni awarded honors by bell-curve, I knew I had a much lower chance of getting good honors if I had gone to engineering.

Long story short, I took a course in which I had a better chance of scoring in. I achieved a mix of A's and B's and I believe I barely made first-class.

With first-class honors, employers don't really care which course I studied. This really opened many doors for me. I don't consider myself very smart. I honestly believe if I had selected other "popular" courses, I would have ended up with a 2nd upper at best. In engineering I'd probably be a 2nd lower.

I am very sure it was my first class honors that got me my starting job in an investment bank. If you don't get 2nd upper, alot of doors close on you already.

Choose a course where you can do well. Engineering is really tough to score. Accountancy is much easier. This is my 2 scts.

Firstly, are you really sure you have secured a place in NUS' ME or just Common Engg. Perhaps's I'm outdated, but during my time in 2001, unless you joined as a diploma holder or you have a place in Chem/Computer Engg, you would only be streamed after your 1st academic yr based on your choice and results. If your Year One result suk big time, you will be thrown to the dumping department (CE was the dumping ground during my time).

Secondly, has the entry requirement for NUS Engg dropped so much? Back in 2001, one requires at least 2 A 1 B to enter NUS Common Engg whereas requirements for NUS Bizad, NTU Accountancy/Biz Studies are less stringent. Given that NUS Engg Faculty is ranked 7th globally in QS World Ranking 2011, it's sad to see my juniors treating it like dumping ground.

Agreed. And accountancy is also very much sought after and only 3 years course in NTU. And get more chance to meet opposite sex from the business school...

Wah lau eh.. you chee hong kia huh? People go uni to study hard to earn a decent paper. You go uni to sian zha bor huh? Dun be so desperate can? = p

Joking aside, the reality is that environment is very impt too. In business school, you will feel happier and more motivated attending lecture and tutorials with many chio bus compared with many ah tiongs and abnn classmates in Engr. Moreover, you get to graduate 1 year earlier and higher chance of working in Shenton Way compared to working in Tuas factories.

What is desperate? During my time in the 90s, the desperate ones were those Engr students who came to Business school library to bio all the girls.

I can tell you that most of those who took up Accoutancy in the 90s are doing a lot better than those who took up Engr. There are a lot more engrs than accountants produced in a year for the past 15 years.

During my times in the early 2000, the trend of Engg guys going to Arts/Bizad/Science canteen to bio gals is still there (Every other canteen just seems nicer than Engin Canteen). This trend will always be there. I was one of them too. It just makes your chicken steak tasted juicier. It's just one of our fav pastime in NUS. But so what? It shldn't be a motivational factor to choose your studies. If one is so desperate for gals, he should stay in the Halls of Residence or join SDUs, etc. Know your priority.
What is wrong with working in Tuas, compared to Shenton Way? One should care more about where his career is heading and how much he is earning.

If you are undecided, pick accountancy or banking finance. NO REGRETS

Only pick Engineering if you have a very very very strong reason to do so (which I honestly I can't think of any)

Don't need think so much. You'd figure out when you graduate 3 years down the road how lucky you are to have chosen accountancy / B&F over engineering.

Ask yourself this:

How often do you see engineering grads regretting their choice and trying to get into Banking and finance?

How often do you see accounting/B&F grads regretting and trying to get into engineering field?

Answer is clearer now?

As an adult, he will know his priorities after considering all the factors. I am just listing out some of the not so obvious factors although cheek in tougue. He can ignore it if he thinks it is not impt at all. It's not like I am misleading him.

You should not question what is wrong with working in Tuas just because it doesn't matter to you. He is not you. He shld ask himself what is wrong with working in Tuas. If he thinks it's ok, then it's ok and he can ignore this factor.

I think you are in your early thirties and sounds like a very practical person. Try not to be too fixated on your thinking and learn to see things from different perspective. And refrain from calling people Chee Hong Kias because that is very rude and reflects badly on your upbringing.

No offence. I was just joking.

And taking up accountancy or finance will equip you with the financial analysis skills that you can use in your own investment, financial management skills set. At the very least, you will feel more confidence in picking up value stocks.

I was too young and stupid to look at the big picture, chose engineering and regrets it. Working in engineering industry has its attractiveness. I was so excited when I had my internship, my first experience at a construction project. The sense of purpose, a few hundred men working together to construct a structure that will remain for decades. Something you can show your grandchildren, and say "Hey, I helped built that!" There is also the sense of cowboyness and toughness, working in the wilderness. Some people can't even stand a day in the site!

All this is good when you are in your twenties. However, reality soon sets in:
- Working with a bunch of unqualified foreign morons, some who can't even write a full English sentence.
- Long working hours and days.
- 3 Ds, dirty, dangerous, demanding
- Tight schedules e.g. construct a chemical plant in 9 months.
- Unattractive to opposite sex.
- Your colleagues are most likely the riff raffs of society. Who else would want to work in engineering?
- Poorly paid if you consider the demands of the job.

Engineering can be suitable for you if:
- you are really interested in engineering. I have seen really dedicated engineers.
- you are a foreign talent from Western or Japanese companies. These companies value engineers and pay them well.
- your father owns an engineering company and he wants you to take over him eventually.

You are right. I did not perform up to expectations for all subjects, but there was a particular one which was far off what I had expected. I was not being unrealistic at all. The past year A level papers that I attempted for this subject, showed a consistent A for at least the papers of the past 3 years. Complacency maybe? That contributed to me, not meeting the "cut-off point" for a course like accountancy. Thank you for the questions that you have posted. They really set me thinking. I am also getting curious of the course which you took.

Yes. I am very sure that it is NUS mech eng and not a common eng. The entry requirements have all gone up.

nus mech eng (ABB/C)
nus eng science (AAB/C)
nus ba accountancy (AAA/B)
nus ba (AAA/C)
ntu accountancy (AAA/B)
ntu ba (AAB/B)

My two cents worth
 

My advice is to choose a course that you have confidence you will do well. In this highly competitive world where graduates are in abundance, your degrees are worthless unless you have a 2nd Upper honours and above. But having said that, the class of your honors is only a stepping stone. Getting a 2nd lower honours or 3rd class does not spell the end of the world. You can still succeed in the working world. Just that you will probably face a tougher time at the beginning compared to your peers whom have obtained better honors. Secondy, I would advise you not to buy into the general perception that courses like engineering are dead end whereas finance and accountancy promise riches and wealth. It is true that finance and accountancy can pay very well if you have what it takes to succeed. But behind every success, there is blood and sweat. And the most important point to takeaway is that not everybody gets there. I would describe finance and accountancy as a sugar coated cake coveted by too many eyes. The end result is that you will find yourself competing with an infinite pool of the smartest and most hardworking people. If you believe that you have what it takes to compete with the best brains out there, go ahead to pursue finance and accountancy. At the end of the day, you have to remember that every society will need people to want to work in all kinds of professions. It is not true that you cannot do well in engineering. And it is also not true that most finance and accountancy professionals get paid **** loads of money. At the end of the day, you can succeed in any fields. You just need to have the capabilities, dedications and stamina. Hope my advices helped.

That does make sense.
I don't think there is a banking finance course.
I was also thinking about the supply of graduates from these courses, being rather, you know, large. I hear people saying that accountants, though getting good paychecks, work long hard hours. Do accountants get a reasonable chance of promotion?

No, I dont have a very very very strong reason to pick Engineering :p

Hello. I did not actually look at engineering as something which I will be involved in. More of using mechanical engineering as a degree that will allow me to squeeze into other sectors. Thank you for giving me an idea of how an engineer, pursuing a career in engineering, will likely face. Hope you do well too! :)

In NTU, their business school NBS consist of two main streams. Accountancy and Business.
Within Business, you choose your specialisation. There is the most popular Banking & Finance, then there are other specialisation such as HR, Marketing etc.

How much research have you done in this area?

When you refer to "accountants", are you referring to accountancy graduates in general? Or actual professional accountants? Are you referring to auditors?

Audit has long hours but it comes in cycles. Pay check is pretty standard and progression is structured. Shall not dwell into details because this is pretty well covered and I don't want to spoon feed. You can search details easily.

I took accountancy but I never wanted to be an auditor. I had a GF who had straight A's, scholar and who was in engineering. We studied together so I know how difficult engineering modules are. The amt of effort it took me to get an A in my modules would have best got me a C in engineering.

Of course this is specific to me.. but I want to point out that I was from science stream in JC and generally have been quite good with maths / physics. So in short, I am pretty decent with numbers but found accountancy so much easier to score.

Any of my close friends / siblings ask me for advice, I will recommend accountancy/ B&F over engineering.

How much do you think first class honor grads from accountancy / B&F earn versus their engineering peers (who have first class?).

Even if you end up with 2nd lower, I have a cousin and a good friend with no honors who are working in back office operations (at banks). They are earning $5-6k after 2-3 years work. Bonus of 2-4 mths. How much do you think a mediocre engineer make after 2-3 years?

Hello. I understand where you are coming from. I concur with you that as long as we work hard, nothing is impossible, really.

This is my very first step into the working world. I don't wish to use 4 years of my youth, only to find out that at the end of it, I am not given the chance to redeem myself. That I am not even called up for interviews because of certain stigmatisations that employers have for graduates from a certain university or certain course. This is, to me, the step before starting to "fight" tooth and nail to reach the top, in the employer's company.

Will employers slam the door on me just purely based upon my resume/degree? I am sure they have a criteria on this? Anyone care to share on this? :)

Hello. I do know that there is the accountancy course and a separate course, but I have to admit that I did not know much. Just had a rough idea of it at the NTU open house. That is about it =S. Will definitely read up on it.

I was referring to professional accountants and auditors.

Thank you! Will take it into consideration as well.

I'm now in my last semester of my 4 years in NTU Mech Engine.

I totally experienced what you are experiencing now when I was your age. Lower than expected grades, undecided, just want to squeeze into a local uni.

My advice for you is that if you are hardly interested in engineering, don't ever come in.
The amount of maths and engineering science i.e. Fluid Dynamics is enough to kill you. Don't EVER let your mind get into this lame notion that you want a "challenging" degree. Its not worth it and the knowledge is too scientific to be practical (ironic, I know). You're better off challenging yourself running up a hill or something.

I've known people in my course who are suffering in agony. In the end they simply just wanna get this **** over and done with, plus, they are totally lost over their future now. What for?

Pertaining to your enquiry on future job search, I'm undergoing it now and as a damn normal 2nd lower, I'm stuck with applying for engineering-related jobs. 2nd Upper is actually the minimum to be able to get out of this **** (in my opinion). The rest just continue to roll in it.

You really need to be determined to score well in Engineering and 4 years is not a short time. Even if you are determined, you might ask yourself at the end of the day the same "What for?" when you achieved it, because people who are smart enough know there's no money to be made being an engineer. It's all about the passion (I won't ever understand this).

I totally agree with some of the things said here. Go study a degree that's easy to get a 1st class or take a degree with a specialized skillset i.e. Accountancy. After all, this world is all about profits, growth and numbers. It's either you help make money, save money or count money. But in my humble opinion, don't re-take your A's, why so hardcore? You can consider SIM, it's really not much of a difference. The grades, leadership and industrial experience when you are in school matters the most.

I hope this helps. Don't wanna see another guy die a slow death.

Good advice but please don't go down the SIM route. It is not recognised by many employers and even if recognised generally regarded as a 2nd tier degree. Don't do that.

Still go to the 3 university but avoid engineering unless you are really passionate about it. If you have the "just take engineering since I can't make it to better courses" mentality you will end up exactly in what we call "dumping ground"

What is the entry requirement for business in NTU now? For my time, AAB could get you into accountancy. ABB could get you into business.

As for retaking your A levels, alot of people I know didn't get better grades by retaking. My own brother included. But I leave that decision to you.

Another alternative, take a study loan or get your parents to fund you overseas for uni. Go and check if certain government agencies can help you with study loan (not scholardship)

Think again
 

Are you sure back office in banks pay 5 to 6k after 2 to 3 years? This isn't what I have heard from friends. What I have heard is banking jobs are very volatile and unstable now. If you check on salary survey, earning 5 to 6k at the age of 30 years old will put you on the top 20% percentile of the population. There are so many banks and back offices in Singapore. If I can be the top 20% of the population by working in the back offices, why are so many bankers struggling to get out of back offices to move into middle or front offices? I think you have to digest all the info and think carefully about what is realistic. Don't just aspire to join the banks because you hear from others that you can make more money in this industry. The truth is there are more people who just make an average living than people who earn alot of money. It is true that engineering is a tough subject to score. But you should know sometimes whether is it easy or difficult to score also depends on your talents and interests. If you are someone strong in maths and science but weak in languages, you will find majors like law and history tough and engineering relatively easier. Likewise if you are weak in maths and science and strong in languages. If I were you, I would choose to study a subject that I am confident I can score well and is relatively easy to find jobs. Whether you succeed in the future or not all depends on your abilities.

First of all, thank you for treating me as a close friend/sibling equivalent :). I too was from the science stream in JC. My maths and physics subjects were my better subjects as well. It's really something to hear that despite your proficiency in the above mentioned subjects, you find accountancy easier than engineering. Sets me thinking.......

Hello. I will definitely check out Fluid Dynamics. The feel that the idea of " A grades over the type of course" is very real. A teacher of mine did tell me the same thing. Unfortunately, I didn't pick what I felt was easier to score, due to parental pressure to take subjects that have "higher economic value". About hardcore...................I personally think that given a second chance, why let it slip? My parents, for various reasons, are strongly against me going to SIM.:rolleyes: I don't wish to go there either.

ntu accountancy (AAA/B)
ntu ba (AAB/B)

Hi. You mean they used to judge you based on just 3 main subjects? I have heard a fair share of good and bad results for students retaking their A levels. I just believe that when you put your heart and soul into it, nothing can stop you.

IMHO, if you don't have a strong reason to pick engineeering, don't! Engineering in Singapore is only for people who are really interested in it, don't mind the low pay for the amount of effort put in, and mediocre prospects.

I have yet to see friends going into engineering due to passion.

They got dumped there?

Well, you may say so. Sorry, but I don't understand your reason for asking such a question

cos you said "I have yet to see friends going into engineering due to passion", and didn't explain why. people may wonder if they were forced by parents to do engineering.

Don't have the misconception that accountancy degree is alll accountancy modules. 1st year is largely general subjects like (economics, statistics, organisational behaviour, marketing etc) You get to choose a 2nd major as well which counts towards your grades. You can pick marketing, business law, hr, banking. These additional modules count towards your final grade / honors.

For me, I scored on the general subjects and took a major that nobody really wanted. I scored straight As for the 2nd major. It was really easy.. alot of coursework and the tutors were very generous simply because nobody took the major (and they wanted to generate more interest)

In the end, my Accountancy modules I scored mainly Bs. A few As but not so many.

I ended up First Class due to proper planning and course selection category.

You need to pick your battles and have a strategy. Choosing a course you can do well in is a start. Selecting a major you can score well in is another.

What is your ultimate goal of a university education? Tbh, most of the things I studied in school never got applied at work. At work, your learn from fresh again. To me, the purpose of getting a degree is to maxmise my hirability. So, you should get the mindset right. Start with the end goal in mind. Strategize to maximise your employability.

Another thing I forget to add. There is a big difference between first class honors vs 2nd class upper. Big difference between 2nd upper vs 2nd lower. About 5% of cohort will get 1st class, 30% 2nd upper. Estimation.

Give you a real life example. During my year, we started sending out resumes 3 months before graduation. At that point, we did not know our expected class of honors. I indicated 2nd upper. I also indicated 2nd upper for my internship applications. I didn't get a single banking internship. Ending up going to audit firm for my internship. Before graduation, I sent out many applications to banks (rejected by 50%) and never progressed much in those that i got shortlisted for. The only job offers I got was for Audit firms (start pay $2.4k)

When finally I graduated and got 1st class. I started applying again. The only change in my CV was I updated expected 2nd upper to First Class honors. I got shortlisted by investment banks, management associate program etc. Even the audit firms called me up and offered me additional $300 in-lieu of my first class. (didn't know they could do this because I thought they were on standard pay scale but they did)

In one offshore bank, their investment banking program had a minimum 2nd upper cut-off. Because there were so many 2nd upper who applied, they tightened to only interview first class. Immediately, my chances shot up due to smaller pool of candidates. During the interviews, my interviewers skipped all the technical questions. When I had indicated 2nd upper, I was being asked accounting basics (e.g. how do you consolidate, account for associates/JV, what is minority interest, how do you value a firm) My answers were mediocre. However with a first-class honors, I had many interviewers who skipped asking technicals because as one put it "I expect these are all basic to you considering you are first-class honors". In their mind, I have already qualified for the job.

Class of honors do matter. Interviewers are superficial, lazy. Go engineering and end up with 2nd lower = you will regret later.

Oh no. This is more like for courses like medicine, law, accountancy.

likely*
#10char

Thank you for your words of wisdom. Nothing is better than getting comments from people who have gone down this route. :)