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  #231 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2017, 03:27 PM
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I really don't have a number now. I tried it some years ago. That number came and went and yet I didn't dare to pull the trigger. Looking back with perfect hindsight, I am glad (financially) that I didn't do it.

Inflation is a monster!! Being able to spend without having to think too much about it is another "luxury". A regular pay-check helps a lot with both examples.

Yes, peak earning years. They only come once and if you let it go, the opportunity costs is very high. We all work to put a few meals on the table for our family, unless your work defines who you are. We work whilst we are still able and wanted. There will come a day when we can't or don't want to. If it hasn't come yet, don't have to force the issue yet.

BTW, my lifestyle not "luxurious" lah. I am just another average Joe making his way in this world.
Thanks Whizzard. Do you mind sharing the size of your portfolio now to generate passive income, the average return that you are generating so far and what are you currently investing in?

After Trump got elected, I started paring down my U.S. stocks (especially the bank shares) but I sold too early (they went up by another 20% or so after I sold!). Sitting on too much cash makes one's hands itchy but I managed to restrain my "itchiness" so far. However, the idle cash would likely drag my portfolio return down to 3% or so this year, which is okay as long as I continue to work with a steady stream of employment income to add to my wealth accumulation. Hopefully with some luck, my net worth could touch 8 digits in two years time.

What about you Whizzard, have you already hit the 2-handle in your 8-digit net worth?

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  #232 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:46 PM
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Thanks Whizzard. Do you mind sharing the size of your portfolio now to generate passive income, the average return that you are generating so far and what are you currently investing in?

After Trump got elected, I started paring down my U.S. stocks (especially the bank shares) but I sold too early (they went up by another 20% or so after I sold!). Sitting on too much cash makes one's hands itchy but I managed to restrain my "itchiness" so far. However, the idle cash would likely drag my portfolio return down to 3% or so this year, which is okay as long as I continue to work with a steady stream of employment income to add to my wealth accumulation. Hopefully with some luck, my net worth could touch 8 digits in two years time.

What about you Whizzard, have you already hit the 2-handle in your 8-digit net worth?
I am generally uncomfortable disclosing the value of my investment portfolio (even in an anonymous forum). I think generally, most people are and it's probably good to follow suit.

Having said that, I do have an opinion on "hypothetical values". Depending on your lifestyle and family circumstances, you can probably ..... no, you should work out how much you would roughly need to sustain your lifestyle. Some people have larger financial burden because of the need to support a larger extended family, some don't.

The biggest risk for me is medical & hospitalisation and I take up additional medical & hospitalisation riders to cover what MediShield Life doesn't cover for my immediate family. We will never know what will happen in the future and if it's insurable without costing an arm and a leg, I think I should insure it away.

Based on my family's lifestyle, a recurring passive income of $500K is more than adequate to maintain our lifestyle, with some left over to roll into the portfolio. Some may use $1M, some others $100K. It's just a benchmark. Hence, working backwards, how large a portfolio do you need to generate $500K per annum? Based on a 5% p.a. returns for a relatively balanced and un-geared portfolio, you will need $10M as a starting point.

Can you squeeze more out of your portfolio? Of course you can, just leverage up and you will get higher returns. But the risk increases tremendously. Even without gearing up, you already have inherent risk even assuming the underlying assets don't go bust. There will be volatility in the portfolio value which will impact the total returns calculation (which is a paper value) and hopefully doesn't translate to volatility in dividends, rentals or pay-outs. If it does, I will have a problem.

I have avoided speculative penny stocks. No interest absolutely. Even when someone tells me a super juicy hot tip. Been there, done that, paid my dues on many different occasions. No more. Only blue chip or large cap stocks with businesses that I can fundamentally understand.

I like REITs and I like higher dividend blue-chip stocks. The dividends help to cushion drops in the stock prices. Like any typical Singaporean, I also invest in properties. The dividends and rental income give me passive income that I use as a war-chest to re-invest whilst my pay-check pays the bills.

Some sectors in the stock market has not done well (telcos and O&M) and properties as an asset class has been bad but with modest gearing on my properties (to offset the tax on my rental income) I can still ride it out. I do take on "high risk" investment in REITs for example. I bought into a private placement for Viva Industrial Trust some years back. It was trading below NAV, paid relatively high dividends and did not have very high gearing then but untested management and short life assets. The stock went down 10cts and stayed below my investment cost (if you invested $1M, that's a $100K paper loss). I held on and received my $55k to $65K annual dividends. Recently, it surged up. Investors plied in due to the high dividends (almost 10% p.a.). Due to the price surge, it traded above its NAV, I sold out. Made some small paper gains on my capital and kept all the dividends that were paid out to me. Now, I have a headache to deploy the capital on another similar yielding REIT, but with much longer life assets, modest gearing, trading below NAV and an experienced management team. But, I am keeping an eye on it. No real hurry though the opportunity cost of waiting is high. Well, if I don't place my chips on the gaming table, no one can take it away from me.

Bonds. All the blue chip bonds in Singapore are paying low coupons (less than 4%). I had some Genting perps. I like it. The company (not the perps) is rated A3/A-, strong investment ratings and my YTM was more than 5%. But, they are redeeming it. I also like Singapore bank subordinated capital instruments only for the higher yield. Singapore banks are conservative because they have a conservative regulator. They are forced to keep a higher capital cushion and discouraged from taking excessive speculative risks. I would buy HSBC too but am very wary of SCB, European banks (especially Italian banks) and US banks. I am still watching the Chinese banks. Not Korea and Japan as the geopolitical risks are too high.

My properties are the main drag in my portfolio. High capital value but low rental yield. Fortunately, they are still tenanted and they are all freehold so my children will get to benefit.

I don't buy individual overseas stocks. Not even an expert in my own country how can I beat the professionals in overseas markets? Bought some overseas funds to diversify the portfolio instead.

So, there you have it. My investment strategy is mainly buy-and-hold. I try to source for value and I try to diversify it a little. If it gets over-valued, I will sell. Else, I just sit on them to enjoy the yields. Every cycle of euphoric price rises, I re-balance the portfolio. It's not exciting and I won't make a killing overnight (but I hope I also won't get killed overnight). But, I get some peace of mind that allows for longer term stability.



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Last edited by whizzard; 12-07-2017 at 10:49 PM.
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  #233 (permalink)  
Old 13-07-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by whizzard View Post
I am generally uncomfortable disclosing the value of my investment portfolio (even in an anonymous forum). I think generally, most people are and it's probably good to follow suit.

Having said that, I do have an opinion on "hypothetical values". Depending on your lifestyle and family circumstances, you can probably ..... no, you should work out how much you would roughly need to sustain your lifestyle. Some people have larger financial burden because of the need to support a larger extended family, some don't.

The biggest risk for me is medical & hospitalisation and I take up additional medical & hospitalisation riders to cover what MediShield Life doesn't cover for my immediate family. We will never know what will happen in the future and if it's insurable without costing an arm and a leg, I think I should insure it away.

Based on my family's lifestyle, a recurring passive income of $500K is more than adequate to maintain our lifestyle, with some left over to roll into the portfolio. Some may use $1M, some others $100K. It's just a benchmark. Hence, working backwards, how large a portfolio do you need to generate $500K per annum? Based on a 5% p.a. returns for a relatively balanced and un-geared portfolio, you will need $10M as a starting point.

Can you squeeze more out of your portfolio? Of course you can, just leverage up and you will get higher returns. But the risk increases tremendously. Even without gearing up, you already have inherent risk even assuming the underlying assets don't go bust. There will be volatility in the portfolio value which will impact the total returns calculation (which is a paper value) and hopefully doesn't translate to volatility in dividends, rentals or pay-outs. If it does, I will have a problem.

I have avoided speculative penny stocks. No interest absolutely. Even when someone tells me a super juicy hot tip. Been there, done that, paid my dues on many different occasions. No more. Only blue chip or large cap stocks with businesses that I can fundamentally understand.

I like REITs and I like higher dividend blue-chip stocks. The dividends help to cushion drops in the stock prices. Like any typical Singaporean, I also invest in properties. The dividends and rental income give me passive income that I use as a war-chest to re-invest whilst my pay-check pays the bills.

Some sectors in the stock market has not done well (telcos and O&M) and properties as an asset class has been bad but with modest gearing on my properties (to offset the tax on my rental income) I can still ride it out. I do take on "high risk" investment in REITs for example. I bought into a private placement for Viva Industrial Trust some years back. It was trading below NAV, paid relatively high dividends and did not have very high gearing then but untested management and short life assets. The stock went down 10cts and stayed below my investment cost (if you invested $1M, that's a $100K paper loss). I held on and received my $55k to $65K annual dividends. Recently, it surged up. Investors plied in due to the high dividends (almost 10% p.a.). Due to the price surge, it traded above its NAV, I sold out. Made some small paper gains on my capital and kept all the dividends that were paid out to me. Now, I have a headache to deploy the capital on another similar yielding REIT, but with much longer life assets, modest gearing, trading below NAV and an experienced management team. But, I am keeping an eye on it. No real hurry though the opportunity cost of waiting is high. Well, if I don't place my chips on the gaming table, no one can take it away from me.

Bonds. All the blue chip bonds in Singapore are paying low coupons (less than 4%). I had some Genting perps. I like it. The company (not the perps) is rated A3/A-, strong investment ratings and my YTM was more than 5%. But, they are redeeming it. I also like Singapore bank subordinated capital instruments only for the higher yield. Singapore banks are conservative because they have a conservative regulator. They are forced to keep a higher capital cushion and discouraged from taking excessive speculative risks. I would buy HSBC too but am very wary of SCB, European banks (especially Italian banks) and US banks. I am still watching the Chinese banks. Not Korea and Japan as the geopolitical risks are too high.

My properties are the main drag in my portfolio. High capital value but low rental yield. Fortunately, they are still tenanted and they are all freehold so my children will get to benefit.

I don't buy individual overseas stocks. Not even an expert in my own country how can I beat the professionals in overseas markets? Bought some overseas funds to diversify the portfolio instead.

So, there you have it. My investment strategy is mainly buy-and-hold. I try to source for value and I try to diversify it a little. If it gets over-valued, I will sell. Else, I just sit on them to enjoy the yields. Every cycle of euphoric price rises, I re-balance the portfolio. It's not exciting and I won't make a killing overnight (but I hope I also won't get killed overnight). But, I get some peace of mind that allows for longer term stability.
An average Joe does not earn $500k a year in wages, not to mention passive income.

The average household expense (reference from Business Times/Singstats) is as below

1st to 20th % ---- $2,231 per month
21st to 40th % --- $3,536 per month
41st to 60th % --- $ 4,699 per month
61st to 80th % --- $ 5,590 per month
81st to 100th % -- $7,568 per month

Thats how many households survive even as they struggle to eke out a decent wage - by living an average Joe's lifestyle between $3K to $6K per month.

If you are worried your $500k pa passive income cannot sustain your retirement, then you are not living an average Joe's lifestyle.

It is one thing being humble, but it is another to act humble while trivialising the struggles that average Joes face every day.

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  #234 (permalink)  
Old 13-07-2017, 02:35 PM
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Life is not about the selfish, incessant pursuit of wealth and status.

Look around you. There are billions of poor souls and destitutes. Hungry and suffering.

If you do have lots of wealth, spare a thought. Donate your wealth to help the billions in need.

Don't be greeedy and selfish.

Life is short. You only live once. Make a difference to the lives of hungry, suffering people all over the globe.

You will not bring your wealth to the grave. You don't want to be the richest person in the grave.

Your true value is not how much you own but how much you give away for the benefit of humanity.
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  #235 (permalink)  
Old 13-07-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
An average Joe does not earn $500k a year in wages, not to mention passive income.

The average household expense (reference from Business Times/Singstats) is as below

1st to 20th % ---- $2,231 per month
21st to 40th % --- $3,536 per month
41st to 60th % --- $ 4,699 per month
61st to 80th % --- $ 5,590 per month
81st to 100th % -- $7,568 per month

Thats how many households survive even as they struggle to eke out a decent wage - by living an average Joe's lifestyle between $3K to $6K per month.

If you are worried your $500k pa passive income cannot sustain your retirement, then you are not living an average Joe's lifestyle.

It is one thing being humble, but it is another to act humble while trivialising the struggles that average Joes face every day.

You take the guy too seriously. In fantasy land he is in. He needs a gd 12million to consistently generate 500k pa. The main thing is the uber rich won't be active in this forum.
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  #236 (permalink)  
Old 13-07-2017, 08:41 PM
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Self doubt guy

You really need to open your circle of network wider to know that there are many wealthy people around.

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
You take the guy too seriously. In fantasy land he is in. He needs a gd 12million to consistently generate 500k pa. The main thing is the uber rich won't be active in this forum.
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  #237 (permalink)  
Old 15-07-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by whizzard View Post
I am generally uncomfortable disclosing the value of my investment portfolio (even in an anonymous forum). I think generally, most people are and it's probably good to follow suit.

Having said that, I do have an opinion on "hypothetical values". Depending on your lifestyle and family circumstances, you can probably ..... no, you should work out how much you would roughly need to sustain your lifestyle. Some people have larger financial burden because of the need to support a larger extended family, some don't.

The biggest risk for me is medical & hospitalisation and I take up additional medical & hospitalisation riders to cover what MediShield Life doesn't cover for my immediate family. We will never know what will happen in the future and if it's insurable without costing an arm and a leg, I think I should insure it away.

Based on my family's lifestyle, a recurring passive income of $500K is more than adequate to maintain our lifestyle, with some left over to roll into the portfolio. Some may use $1M, some others $100K. It's just a benchmark. Hence, working backwards, how large a portfolio do you need to generate $500K per annum? Based on a 5% p.a. returns for a relatively balanced and un-geared portfolio, you will need $10M as a starting point.

Can you squeeze more out of your portfolio? Of course you can, just leverage up and you will get higher returns. But the risk increases tremendously. Even without gearing up, you already have inherent risk even assuming the underlying assets don't go bust. There will be volatility in the portfolio value which will impact the total returns calculation (which is a paper value) and hopefully doesn't translate to volatility in dividends, rentals or pay-outs. If it does, I will have a problem.

I have avoided speculative penny stocks. No interest absolutely. Even when someone tells me a super juicy hot tip. Been there, done that, paid my dues on many different occasions. No more. Only blue chip or large cap stocks with businesses that I can fundamentally understand.

I like REITs and I like higher dividend blue-chip stocks. The dividends help to cushion drops in the stock prices. Like any typical Singaporean, I also invest in properties. The dividends and rental income give me passive income that I use as a war-chest to re-invest whilst my pay-check pays the bills.

Some sectors in the stock market has not done well (telcos and O&M) and properties as an asset class has been bad but with modest gearing on my properties (to offset the tax on my rental income) I can still ride it out. I do take on "high risk" investment in REITs for example. I bought into a private placement for Viva Industrial Trust some years back. It was trading below NAV, paid relatively high dividends and did not have very high gearing then but untested management and short life assets. The stock went down 10cts and stayed below my investment cost (if you invested $1M, that's a $100K paper loss). I held on and received my $55k to $65K annual dividends. Recently, it surged up. Investors plied in due to the high dividends (almost 10% p.a.). Due to the price surge, it traded above its NAV, I sold out. Made some small paper gains on my capital and kept all the dividends that were paid out to me. Now, I have a headache to deploy the capital on another similar yielding REIT, but with much longer life assets, modest gearing, trading below NAV and an experienced management team. But, I am keeping an eye on it. No real hurry though the opportunity cost of waiting is high. Well, if I don't place my chips on the gaming table, no one can take it away from me.

Bonds. All the blue chip bonds in Singapore are paying low coupons (less than 4%). I had some Genting perps. I like it. The company (not the perps) is rated A3/A-, strong investment ratings and my YTM was more than 5%. But, they are redeeming it. I also like Singapore bank subordinated capital instruments only for the higher yield. Singapore banks are conservative because they have a conservative regulator. They are forced to keep a higher capital cushion and discouraged from taking excessive speculative risks. I would buy HSBC too but am very wary of SCB, European banks (especially Italian banks) and US banks. I am still watching the Chinese banks. Not Korea and Japan as the geopolitical risks are too high.

My properties are the main drag in my portfolio. High capital value but low rental yield. Fortunately, they are still tenanted and they are all freehold so my children will get to benefit.

I don't buy individual overseas stocks. Not even an expert in my own country how can I beat the professionals in overseas markets? Bought some overseas funds to diversify the portfolio instead.

So, there you have it. My investment strategy is mainly buy-and-hold. I try to source for value and I try to diversify it a little. If it gets over-valued, I will sell. Else, I just sit on them to enjoy the yields. Every cycle of euphoric price rises, I re-balance the portfolio. It's not exciting and I won't make a killing overnight (but I hope I also won't get killed overnight). But, I get some peace of mind that allows for longer term stability.
Thanks for the detailed sharing Whizzard. I always able to pick up some learning points from your posting and I appreciate it.

Your recurring passive income of $500k is a good guide. My family requires a much lower number for our lifestyle but for prudence purposes (medical, inflation, help for relatives etc.), I think $500k annual passive income is a good target to strive for before "calling it quits" in my case. I could then spend more time to contribute back to the society without having to worry about the well-being of my family.

Happy to know that you were a unitholder of Viva as well. I got allocated quite a number of Viva units during the IPO and as you said, the price went down and stayed below IPO price for a (long) period of time but I am not too worried as the dividend was good while my total investment in Viva is relatively small (sub-$100k). In fact I am still holding on to the units until today although the price has gone up a bit ($0.915 versus IPO price of $0.78). I am inclined to continue holding so as to avoid adding to my headache of deploying the sale proceeds. With the run up in the stock prices, it is increasingly difficult to find good investment opportunities. Generally if the stocks do not give me sufficient "margin of safety", they are unlikely to interest me however good their underlying businesses. That is why I missed out big time on the tech stocks (Facebook, Alibaba, Tencents, etc.), haha. However, no regrets though because I agreed that "peace of mind" is priceless. I already have enough stress from work.

I hope you can continue your posting to share with us your journey and experience. Thanks Whizzard!
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  #238 (permalink)  
Old 22-07-2017, 10:02 PM
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Couple early 40s working professionals with two young children
Combined employment income: $230k pa
Rental income from 2nd property: $41k pa
Fully paid HDB
Outstanding loan on 2nd property: $1mil
Net worth: $1.5mil (including $400k fixed deposits)
No car
Annual savings: $80k
Both target to retire in 10 years time (before 55 years old)

Are we on track to retirement?
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Old 26-07-2017, 12:46 AM
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Couple early 40s working professionals with two young children
Combined employment income: $230k pa
Rental income from 2nd property: $41k pa
Fully paid HDB
Outstanding loan on 2nd property: $1mil
Net worth: $1.5mil (including $400k fixed deposits)
No car
Annual savings: $80k
Both target to retire in 10 years time (before 55 years old)

Are we on track to retirement?
yes if your two kids do not get drawn into bad influences.
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  #240 (permalink)  
Old 27-07-2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Thanks for the detailed sharing Whizzard. I always able to pick up some learning points from your posting and I appreciate it.

Your recurring passive income of $500k is a good guide. My family requires a much lower number for our lifestyle but for prudence purposes (medical, inflation, help for relatives etc.), I think $500k annual passive income is a good target to strive for before "calling it quits" in my case. I could then spend more time to contribute back to the society without having to worry about the well-being of my family.

Happy to know that you were a unitholder of Viva as well. I got allocated quite a number of Viva units during the IPO and as you said, the price went down and stayed below IPO price for a (long) period of time but I am not too worried as the dividend was good while my total investment in Viva is relatively small (sub-$100k). In fact I am still holding on to the units until today although the price has gone up a bit ($0.915 versus IPO price of $0.78). I am inclined to continue holding so as to avoid adding to my headache of deploying the sale proceeds. With the run up in the stock prices, it is increasingly difficult to find good investment opportunities. Generally if the stocks do not give me sufficient "margin of safety", they are unlikely to interest me however good their underlying businesses. That is why I missed out big time on the tech stocks (Facebook, Alibaba, Tencents, etc.), haha. However, no regrets though because I agreed that "peace of mind" is priceless. I already have enough stress from work.

I hope you can continue your posting to share with us your journey and experience. Thanks Whizzard!
There is still massive value in tech stocks. Although valuations are higher earnings remain healthy. I've recently doubled my exposure to tech to 8% of my portfolio(still under double digit). Started with 2% one year ago.

You let go of US stocks too fast, don't buy stories published by the mainstream media, they are blinded by the hate they hold for republicans. I try to filter the hate news and look for US policies that will invigorate the economy which the news don't report.

Once obamacare appeal becomes successful, it will be followed by tax reforms. This my friend is a time for killing.
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