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Unregistered 23-01-2011 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobo (Post 9063)
Please read my post properly. Did I say he is a liar? Now read his post again.

You shouldn't believe anything just because I say so. You should instead look at the facts.

Let me make it very simple for you. Ignore the rest of the story. Just focus on this point:

He claims that without a degree and after working for 2 yrs, he got 4.2k a month. He started work in 2005 and mid 2006 (1 1/1 yrs later), drew 4.2k and by the end of the yr (2 yrs later), drew 4.9k.

Most graduates who studied full-time, with 2nd upper hons, from a reputable university, who have worked for 2 yrs get nowhere near the amount.

Or, let me put it another way to you: For 4.9k a month, I can get a Manager, with Hons from a reputable university, with 6-7 years experience. But nooooOOooo, instead, I would hire someone from Singapore poly with 2 yrs experience and pay that person 4.9k a month! This chap is not even from poly!

Now, you tell me, which idiot would a) make such a hiring decision and b) actually get HR to approve it? I mean what? He's made of gold?

Please go and check how much is the starting pay of someone from poly, and how much that person can expect to earn in four years, never mind two.

If you choose to believe fantastic stories, that a poly student with 2 yrs experience is earning the same pay as a Manager who is an hons graduate with 6-7 yrs experience, good for you. Just because you choose to believe fantastic stories, doesn't mean people who express doubt over such a story are ignorant - unlike you, we're just more skeptical about magic stones that can cure cancer.

For 4.9k, you can hire an experienced manager, instead you hire a poly graduate with only 2 years experience??? Things clear to you now?

Your final para is irrelevant to the point I am making. There are people who start at 4k, sure. And there are people who can double up in 4 yrs, sure. We all know the starting pay of the armed forces and the scholar route. You're taking about graduates.

I'm talking about a poly diploma holder (part-time) with just 2 yrs experience drawing 4.9k a month. This fella didn't start his own business. He is working for someone. Understand?

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't find his story incredible, and even if it is, I don't discount that it may be true. The fact of the matter is that he started work in 2005, which was a good year for employees. So was 2006 and 2007. 2008 and 2009 were bad years. You apparently consider a degree very important and would clearly not pay the same salary for a diploma holder or less. But that doesn't mean every employer is like you. The public service thinks like you, which explains the wage differential between employees of different educational levels. Thankfully, most private firms don't draw that same stark distinction, and so it would be possible, I believe, for him to draw that kind of salary with his qualifications. Assuming he is that good, I don't see why a firm would not compensate him accordingly.

bobo 23-01-2011 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman (Post 9047)
Left coy at around sept 2009?. Last drawn 4.9k.. din wait to collect bonus (AWS) :(

3rd job, join a local GLC do IT.. start pay 5.3k, realise not really wat i wan and i think the internal politics abit crazy.. so i left 2 months during probation

4th job/current job .. do IT in a mnc financial industry coy.. start pay 5.8k.. around june last year, converted to perm staff, pay increment to existing 6.2k. Till now, overall annual is about 15 mths package.. no AWS.. so roughly 90+-k/yr

"In the first quarter of 2009, Singapore’s GDP contracted at a catastrophic rate of 11.5%, much worse than expected. In March, non-petroleum exports declined by 17%, the eleventh consecutive monthly decline. Unemployment is rising while business confidence is plummeting. The once busy port of Singapore is now almost quiescent, a reflection not only of Singapore’s decline but also a window on how severely global trade has been impacted by the worldwide recession."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 9058)
Actually, the ignorance of the people on this forum is staggering.

Despite a global economic crisis, DBS firing Senior Mgt by the truckloads, Mediacorp taking a 20% cut and Thurs off, increment and bonus freezes all across the market, the government tapping into the untouchable reserves...some people still believe that for nothing, a poly student with very little experience gets another $500.

And since when is it trendy to hire someone who changes job yearly, and leaves his last job only after two months?

You're right. The ignorance of people in this forum is indeed staggering.

bobo 23-01-2011 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 9064)
Then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't find his story incredible, and even if it is, I don't discount that it may be true. The fact of the matter is that he started work in 2005, which was a good year for employees. So was 2006 and 2007. 2008 and 2009 were bad years. You apparently consider a degree very important and would clearly not pay the same salary for a diploma holder or less. But that doesn't mean every employer is like you. The public service thinks like you, which explains the wage differential between employees of different educational levels. Thankfully, most private firms don't draw that same stark distinction, and so it would be possible, I believe, for him to draw that kind of salary with his qualifications. Assuming he is that good, I don't see why a firm would not compensate him accordingly.

Yes and as I told you, some people believe that magic stones can cure cancer. Go read my post on his fantastic pay jump in 2009. You also believe that employers see nothing wrong in changing job yearly?

You also believe that different employers will just give you a pay raise for no reason? Good on you. Our friend didn't get a promotion. In fact, he was never promoted. He just change jobs and by virtue of changing jobs, he gets a pay raise. Suuuuuuureeee.

Most private firms DO draw that stark distinction. Go read the newspapers and read more job ads if you haven't joined the workforce. Or at the very least, don't go around calling people ignorant.

People get paid for QUALIFICATIONS and EXPERIENCE. No one forks out 4.9k for 2 yrs non-executive experience. Try harder.

Unregistered 23-01-2011 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobo (Post 9066)
Yes and as I told you, some people believe that magic stones can cure cancer. Go read my post on his fantastic pay jump in 2009. You also believe that employers see nothing wrong in changing job yearly?

You also believe that different employers will just give you a pay raise for no reason? Good on you. Our friend didn't get a promotion. In fact, he was never promoted. He just change jobs and by virtue of changing jobs, he gets a pay raise. Suuuuuuureeee.

Most private firms DO draw that stark distinction. Go read the newspapers and read more job ads if you haven't joined the workforce. Or at the very least, don't go around calling people ignorant.

People get paid for QUALIFICATIONS and EXPERIENCE. No one forks out 4.9k for 2 yrs non-executive experience. Try harder.

Hi Bobo, i am the guy who worked in the shipyard who got more 5.1k in my 4th year.
Maybe he managed to get 4.9k the same way as i did?

but seriously, there are many people who get more than 4k after working 3 years.
my wife is 1 case. she works in goldman. infact she got more than i am. but she left after a while as we wanted to start a family.

i got another best friend of mine. same thing, made more than 4k after 3 years. he worked in a offshore EPC company.

all of us are local grads with normal honours (not first..).
we are not rare cases, there are many out there.

Unregistered 23-01-2011 12:43 PM

Just ignore bobo, he's a forum troll, period.

deadman 23-01-2011 12:57 PM

To Bobo and others,

you asked me why i shared my stories..
Part of the reason is, i just want to let you know, it's possible that outside is paying that well even in IT industries.. Also, it's true that IT is flooded with lots of foreigners from other countries, but some coy just have second thoughts in hiring indian or ppl from other asian countries. So i can be consider lucky that i found such companies therefore the pay is not so depressed by competition.

By the way, i dont even consider my package is ultra fantastic or what, because i know some peers who are doing much better.

To sum it up.. from my perspective in IT line, ppl pay according to qualifications, experience and skill..
Maybe for my case, ppl are paying more due to my skill.. So, to those who may not have a fantastic degree/honors from branded school, please dont be too disheartened, we may have a slow start (low starting pay job), but that doesnt me we will be always low forever.. Time will tells, if your employer(s) appreciate your skill sets. But i believe the chances of success will be much greater in MNC/private coy compare to civil services or GLC which heavily depending on grades.

Some one asked me why im still competing in this rat race? i dont quite understand.. if you mean, why im still not contended.. i can only say, money is not enough :P
I'm a pretty conservative person, so i dont do investments etc. My only source of income is salary, and i only do monthly savings.. Therefore getting a better paying job seems to be my only way to build my wealth :)

deadman 23-01-2011 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman (Post 9073)
To Bobo and others,

you asked me why i shared my stories..
Part of the reason is, i just want to let you know, it's possible that outside is paying that well even in IT industries.. Also, it's true that IT is flooded with lots of foreigners from other countries, but some coy just have second thoughts in hiring indian or ppl from other asian countries. So i can be consider lucky that i found such companies therefore the pay is not so depressed by competition.

By the way, i dont even consider my package is ultra fantastic or what, because i know some peers who are doing much better.

To sum it up.. from my perspective in IT line, ppl pay according to qualifications, experience and skill..
Maybe for my case, ppl are paying more due to my skill.. So, to those who may not have a fantastic degree/honors from branded school, please dont be too disheartened, we may have a slow start (low starting pay job), but that doesnt me we will be always low forever.. Time will tells, if your employer(s) appreciate your skill sets. But i believe the chances of success will be much greater in MNC/private coy compare to civil services or GLC which heavily depending on grades.

Some one asked me why im still competing in this rat race? i dont quite understand.. if you mean, why im still not contended.. i can only say, money is not enough :P
I'm a pretty conservative person, so i dont do investments etc. My only source of income is salary, and i only do monthly savings.. Therefore getting a better paying job seems to be my only way to build my wealth :)

By the way, just to prevent more unpleasant discussion about my monthly pay till 2009. i can show 1 of my payslip for 2009 since its already way past of 2009

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9...tsalary.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

bobo 23-01-2011 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 9070)
Hi Bobo, i am the guy who worked in the shipyard who got more 5.1k in my 4th year.
Maybe he managed to get 4.9k the same way as i did?

but seriously, there are many people who get more than 4k after working 3 years.
my wife is 1 case. she works in goldman. infact she got more than i am. but she left after a while as we wanted to start a family.

i got another best friend of mine. same thing, made more than 4k after 3 years. he worked in a offshore EPC company.

all of us are local grads with normal honours (not first..).
we are not rare cases, there are many out there.

dude, he is not a graduate. he is a poly dip holder with 2 yrs experience. your wife and you are graduates. note the difference for discussion. more useful will be to talk about how much the poly graduates in your company and goldman sachs are paid.

bobo 23-01-2011 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman (Post 9075)
By the way, just to prevent more unpleasant discussion about my monthly pay till 2009. i can show 1 of my payslip for 2009 since its already way past of 2009 ImageShack.us

Your pay is fantastic. I am more interested in your 2006 pay slip, where without qualifications (ie. skills) or experience, you got paid 4.9k. Please share with us which is the dumb company so we can all apply for a job there.

Unregistered 23-01-2011 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perspective (Post 6521)
This is indeed a very interesting thread.

I only worked for 7 months in the civil service, which was my first job upon graduation. Thereafter, I joined a university, doing somethign I really like. My job requires me to remain in close contact with the civil service, though.

My pay took a hit, and admittedly, in general, I am significantly behind my peers who stayed on in the civil service, their first and only job. But, taking a step back, I'm still happy, and my life is still comfortable. Yes, I do get envious hearing the raw salary figures, but you gotta see things from different perspectives.

Also, I've come to realise, you just need a good financial strategy to be OK financially!

Several comments/observations.


- The civil service is Singapore's largest employer. Because it's such a big organisaiton, similar to having many industries under one roof, you can't take the career paths of individuals as the benchmark. In many cases, comparing 2 civil servants will be like comparing apples and oranges. In that sense, this original purpose of this thread, to get a "feel" of civil service pay scales for the sake of comparison is impossible to achieve. This is especially so as many of those who have kindly given precise salary figures did not state their appointment or ministry.

- To the question of whether you're being underpaid, I believe that the civil service pays a fair wage for each job vacancy. What may make you think otherwise is the speicifc work environment. Perhaps you have a lousy boss who rides you too hard? Maybe your boss is making you do more than you're really supposed to do? Or maybe the job is simply a poor job fit for you. In other words, it's more because of people issues that you feel underpaid, not structural ones where the organisation is intentionally underpaying you.

- It is also important to note that you are civil servants, supposedly working for the good for the people of Singapore. There is a certain amount of altriuism to be expected. Just like how we expect politicians to make sacrifices for the larger good, I think it is only fair that we expect civil servants to at least be interested in service to the country, and be motivated not just by salary alone. There must be other forms of satisfaction derived. I know this is grey area, and I agree the general work ethic in Singapore doesn't promote this "selflessness." I also recognise that many will say politicians are paid very well so why should we talk about selflessness etc. But that said, I do believe that many of the politicians would be earning a lot more in the private sector if they went back. Even if they aren't nice or likeable people, people you jsut want to smack and slap, they are indeed incredibly smart and capable. If they had stayed in the industries they were head-hunted by the PAP from, they would certainly be rolling in the dough! Anyway, that's an entirely different discussion.

- What you do (your job) is as important as how much you get paid. If you value the latter over the former, there is a good chance that by your 40s, you'll be incredibly cynical and disillusioned because your salary will never be enough (in your opinion).

- Also, as someone pointed out, the civil service treats its employees in a civil manner. There is a large amount of stability in your job if you do what's expected of you (you don't even need to excel). THe private sector, however, isn't as stable in general. Although you might earn a lot more, there's also a greater risk that you may lose your job, even if you were the hardest worker on the block. THis is something you should factor in. Don't just look at the short-term. Consider the longer term. Some people value this stability, and are willing to earn less for it.

- On this topic, think about work-life balance too. This is especially important when switching between industries, or private and public sectors. There's a cost for everything gained! I believe there's no such thing as a free lunch. If you get fantastic pay, there must be a cost. Also, having lots of money is good, but as the chinese saying goes, "how much rice can you eat?" A lot of us already earn more than the median monthly income of Singaporeans. Maybe it's time to adjust your expectations. It's the classic chasing the 5Cs phenomenon. Find something else that will satisfy you, and help you find the meaning of life (cheesy as it may sound, it is very important!).

- As with all industries, there's an element of luck in determining your salary or promotion. Sometimes, this element of luck can be a lot larger than you might think! After all, you're working in an environment staffed by people, not robots, where judgements and decisions will be unavoidably subjective. Because of this, it is impossible to calculate precisely how well you will do, or how fast you may move up. Many promotions happen because you happen to be at the right place at the right time. Or you happen to possess an urgently needed set of skills. Call it destiny or good karma. There's a certain amount of plotting, scheming and engineering that can be done, but you can never chart your career progression as if it's a science.

- Increasingly, the scholar-farmer divide is narrowing. Especially for those who have just joined the civil service. I know this is very much the case in MINDEF. If you're in your late 30s or 40s, maybe you'll see it less. But for younger civil servants, opportunities abound, even if you're not a scholar! Don't allow people to convince you otherwise. Yes, scholars will be taken care of, but only because the govt has spent so much money on them. That said, many are leaving too! There's also the grudging recognition that a brilliant 18 year old doesn't necessarily make a brilliant 28 year old, or a 38 year old :)

- Finally, and I suppose this is what I think is the most important, is get a financial plan. Either read up and make your own, or employ a reliable financial advisor. At the end of the day, your biggest asset is time, so the sooner you have a disciplined plan, the more your money can grow. And with a good plan, you can still race ahead of your peers even if your pay is below theirs. Also, if you have specific goals, you can try to work towards them. And even if your financial burdens are incredibly heavy, with early planning, you can still have a very comfortable life. Few realise how wonderful time can be as a monetary multiplier! I know of so many people who drew high salaries but blew it away because they didn't have a good financial plan. This is also tied in with work-life balance. If you work in a stressful job, there's a higher chance you'll spend money on unnecessary things which don't add any value to your financial portfolio because you think "you deserve treating yourself." Ironically, it's because you want to expand your financial portfolio that you seek a high paying job!

This is so far the most valuable advice/comment in this entire forum.. You guys should just stop listening to bobo spouting nonsense..


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