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How is life as a doctor in Singapore?

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  #9021 (permalink)  
Old 13-12-2024, 09:08 PM
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Banking bro here

Just some of my quick thoughts. Can / will supplement later.a

If you choose to become a doctor in SG, an average one is unlikely to beat bankers that can survive (but I would say bankers that can survive are probably rarer than being a surgeon in SG). VP (6-7 yoe+) at a BB can clear 500k at an average year and potentially more. But most of them join as grad analyst maybe half of them make VP or equivalent.

You can easily beat the number by getting into derm or equivalent (hard af I guess) or being a doctor in HK (not likely an option for most SG bros). Then it is about aesthetics or GP entrepreneurship which I cannot comment much as I don't think it is that easy.

Finance is about the long game though. If you are a junior who cannot stand the hours or got fired, your options are limited. Get a junior position at a tech company (M&A, investor relations, capital markets, strategy, etc.) and make 6-8k as someone with 2-4 yoe. Or move down to lower tier banks like SMBC, ING, or whatever. And simply once you move down, either you are lucky af to move back up in a bull market or you are stuck moving between lower tier shops. Low tier investment banks still pay decent money but low tier buysides don't. They have many bodies from big 4 or whatever jobs who are desperate for "deals" or "M&A" experience with a dream of moving upward from a 8k private equity job at a small fund to larger funds or investment banks.

The issue with finance vs doctor is there is limited spots for doctors. GP is a safety net for everyone and rest is upside from there. Finance - you have thousands of BBA students who want good money, engineering students who suddenly love finance for the money, those who went Oxbridge LSE Ivies who can only do this (what else can they do?), and even those who cannot make it went to back office or big 4 or inhouse M&A or small PE funds and everyday thinking of moving up from there. Thousands of replacements are manufactured every year and because only a handful of employers can pay, basically everyone is replaceable and you won't have sense of security there.

Separately, on a personal basis, finance is not really about how sharp you are. There are really smart people but I can tell you if one thing is most important for this industry, it must not be intelligence as more like IQ110 is the requirement and that's it.

It is about social skills. I don't have much but I am lucky. But for most people, you have to either be genuinely nice, hardworking and likeable by everyone or master of acting / sociopath to throw other people under the bus making yourself look good. Mind you everyone is replaceable that's why this is the most important. From day 1, you can be a student applying summer internship and for 6 headcounts we receive 2000 resumes, interview 100-150 for first round. Everyone did 2-3 internships in boutique investment banks or funds, with decent GPA and loads of ECs. Going to a good school is important but it is more like a requirement than an advantage - There are more than a thousand of Singaporeans + Southeast Asians in US top 20 schools + Oxbridge LSE Imperial. How many BB IBD S&T PE HF spots in SG? Maybe 100 across all these? Adding NUS NTU SMU and take out people who are so entitled not preparing for interviews, you have a win rate of 1/4 I would say. Great, 1/4 chance you will be a high finance bro. Do MBBS, you are 1 in 1 a doctor. And no one guarantees you can stand the pressure in finance. You can work at a MM HF with toxic boss that makes you want to quit, work at a PE fund that does only 1 deal in your 3 years etc.

For 1 opening at something like KKR Singapore, you have dozens of people are qualified and working / worked at somewhere like another top tier fund's London / NY office wanting to come back, bankers from MS/JPM etc. in SG/NY/London offices, kids who have solid experience from local shops like Southern, Navis, etc. Everyone is very replaceable so to survive, be likeable and continue to hustle for your whole life to build your name.

The effort it takes may as well get you into IM then cards or GI and scope scope scope for free money.

However, for a Singaporean, I would say if you believe you are destined to be the top 1% of the 1% (i.e. top 1% of doctors / bankers / lawyers), definitely do finance. You will print unlimited money there. Be a PM with crazy track record in a pod at 35, just signing bonus alone is 5-10m SGD. Work at a mega fund in PE, get top rating every year, promote to MD/Partner before 40 and makes 2-5m SGD a year, potentially start your fund and raise 500-600m then charge 2/20 fee on that. Join TikTok as CEO and make bank, etc. Sky is the limit there but I can tell you every working at a BB IBD/S&T, such example appears maybe 1 in a few years across the street. The reason you see so many such people is 1) sampling bias as they will appear on news much more often and 2) the old gen had it way easier because the finance sector was a wild west 20 years ago when analyst buying lambo to celebrate their promotion and associate makes 500k 4-5 years out of school. These were more than 20 years ago so don't come in with such expectation.

Essentially, ceiling is higher for bankers, but the bottom/floor is higher for doctors.

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  #9022 (permalink)  
Old 13-12-2024, 10:55 PM
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Aesthetics is minimally 500k
If u start ur own chain is 1mil

Aesthetics beats law partner
I am an ex-locum GP who switched into Law, so I can comment on this. In theory, you can make a lot in aesthetics but the market is getting saturated nowadays. Most GPs try to dabble into aesthetics but then realise it’s not their cup of tea because it’s a lot about connections.

For example, some aesthetic docs are good friends of MediaCorp artistes and those artistes just exclusively come to their clinic only.

It’s true that it’s also competitive in Law but I will say that if you are an average performer who can survive the slog, 400-500k a year is definitely doable as a salaried partner in B4. Of course the salary is higher as equity or in international firms but that requires skill and connections.

Earnings wise: bottom 40% of law graduate (underperformer)< average med graduate , but average law graduate (50 centile)> average med graduate

Top docs make more than top lawyers but their numbers are in the same minority that it simply isn’t a statistic. For this reason, MP and minister salaries are not pegged to the top 1% of doctors. Because the number is simply too insignificant.

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  #9023 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 12:35 AM
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I am an ex-locum GP who switched into Law, so I can comment on this. In theory, you can make a lot in aesthetics but the market is getting saturated nowadays. Most GPs try to dabble into aesthetics but then realise it’s not their cup of tea because it’s a lot about connections.

For example, some aesthetic docs are good friends of MediaCorp artistes and those artistes just exclusively come to their clinic only.

It’s true that it’s also competitive in Law but I will say that if you are an average performer who can survive the slog, 400-500k a year is definitely doable as a salaried partner in B4. Of course the salary is higher as equity or in international firms but that requires skill and connections.

Earnings wise: bottom 40% of law graduate (underperformer)< average med graduate , but average law graduate (50 centile)> average med graduate

Top docs make more than top lawyers but their numbers are in the same minority that it simply isn’t a statistic. For this reason, MP and minister salaries are not pegged to the top 1% of doctors. Because the number is simply too insignificant.
Bro, i feel making partner in law is difficult. These guys also don't sleep.
I remember i made a lawyer from R&T work till 7am twice consecutively. I slept 5 hours only as well as I was rushing towards the deadline on my side.
But my job is just to review and I can intermittently sleep 30min *10 before 7am then stack a 2h. They literally worked 9am-7am, I keep calling them every 2h to stock take.

Its not always but when it happens I guess it's just depressing. I feel guilty as well but my client and my bosses push for that.

As a doctor u work long hours but its not like u have a deadline of bid submission in 2 days and u need to do 30 turns of revisions. There is also not that much of continuity. In banking or law, there are things that are just too tedious or too complex that I don't want to waste 20h to deal with. As a doc, not that many things will need u to use consecutive 20h to do. U can wrap up ur work but law and finance there's just no such thing as wrapping up until deal is done. Work at A&E, kick them home done. Work as rheum, review tests, think a bit, inject, send home (my understanding of their private practice). Bankers - u don't finish the 100 pages of docs or models u can't really move on. At best people will guide u but if u can't do, u will modtly be fk-d until u can do it rather than just refer/consult and learn from there. Even after it has been done by urself, people will ask u to make 100 turns changes despite what u did make sense.

I am sure u as a lawyer know clients want many iterations for fun. And at least patients won't come back to u 40 times in 5 days asking u to change something, redo something, test more, etc.

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  #9024 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 02:36 AM
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Bro, i feel making partner in law is difficult. These guys also don't sleep.
I remember i made a lawyer from R&T work till 7am twice consecutively. I slept 5 hours only as well as I was rushing towards the deadline on my side.
But my job is just to review and I can intermittently sleep 30min *10 before 7am then stack a 2h. They literally worked 9am-7am, I keep calling them every 2h to stock take.

Its not always but when it happens I guess it's just depressing. I feel guilty as well but my client and my bosses push for that.

As a doctor u work long hours but its not like u have a deadline of bid submission in 2 days and u need to do 30 turns of revisions. There is also not that much of continuity. In banking or law, there are things that are just too tedious or too complex that I don't want to waste 20h to deal with. As a doc, not that many things will need u to use consecutive 20h to do. U can wrap up ur work but law and finance there's just no such thing as wrapping up until deal is done. Work at A&E, kick them home done. Work as rheum, review tests, think a bit, inject, send home (my understanding of their private practice). Bankers - u don't finish the 100 pages of docs or models u can't really move on. At best people will guide u but if u can't do, u will modtly be fk-d until u can do it rather than just refer/consult and learn from there. Even after it has been done by urself, people will ask u to make 100 turns changes despite what u did make sense.

I am sure u as a lawyer know clients want many iterations for fun. And at least patients won't come back to u 40 times in 5 days asking u to change something, redo something, test more, etc.
GP work is volume of patients. Every patient is different. But charge very little per patient regardless how complex. There is no such thing as spend 5h on a complex patient bill more. You are given 10 minutes regardless how complicated the patient is. Like you said move on.

But then it is like dealing with zombies. And there are no Zombie "Boss" where there is high yield and return for clearing that zombie. It is just the average zombie one after another. Some zombies are harder to kill so maybe just move on to the next one. Think of it like you are in the zombie apocalypse the zombies swarming biting attacking BUT YOU CANNOT DIE AND WON'T TURN TO ZOMBIE EITHER. So you stuck there have to keep trying to clear clear clear until there is a path home.

And no one says good job or anything there is no reward or medal cos it is just regular zombies.

Thankless job.

I rather work hard, deal with complex cases, get told that was a really good job, performance. Be recognized. Move up the chain to get better yields on my time and effort spent. Be a recognized expert in a niche. Something like that.

Which is why NEVER BE A GENERALIST. Dumbest thing to do. Name me any "generalist" in any industry that truly excels.
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  #9025 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 08:18 AM
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Bro, i feel making partner in law is difficult. These guys also don't sleep.
I remember i made a lawyer from R&T work till 7am twice consecutively. I slept 5 hours only as well as I was rushing towards the deadline on my side.
But my job is just to review and I can intermittently sleep 30min *10 before 7am then stack a 2h. They literally worked 9am-7am, I keep calling them every 2h to stock take.

Its not always but when it happens I guess it's just depressing. I feel guilty as well but my client and my bosses push for that.

As a doctor u work long hours but its not like u have a deadline of bid submission in 2 days and u need to do 30 turns of revisions. There is also not that much of continuity. In banking or law, there are things that are just too tedious or too complex that I don't want to waste 20h to deal with. As a doc, not that many things will need u to use consecutive 20h to do. U can wrap up ur work but law and finance there's just no such thing as wrapping up until deal is done. Work at A&E, kick them home done. Work as rheum, review tests, think a bit, inject, send home (my understanding of their private practice). Bankers - u don't finish the 100 pages of docs or models u can't really move on. At best people will guide u but if u can't do, u will modtly be fk-d until u can do it rather than just refer/consult and learn from there. Even after it has been done by urself, people will ask u to make 100 turns changes despite what u did make sense.

I am sure u as a lawyer know clients want many iterations for fun. And at least patients won't come back to u 40 times in 5 days asking u to change something, redo something, test more, etc.

Been through both careers and I can say that HO/MOPEX is more exhausting than all-nighters in the office. And it’s not always that you are required to work past midnight in Law. Usually only when there’s a huge transaction deal flow. MOPEX life is shag during my time 20 hour shifts are very common. I rarely leave the hospital at 6pm. Normal hours usually start at 630am-830pm.

And the nature of the work. You have to be constantly on the move as a doc on the wards. It’s not a sedentary role. Way more exhausting than drafting documents as a lawyer.
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  #9026 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 09:50 AM
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Been through both careers and I can say that HO/MOPEX is more exhausting than all-nighters in the office. And it’s not always that you are required to work past midnight in Law. Usually only when there’s a huge transaction deal flow. MOPEX life is shag during my time 20 hour shifts are very common. I rarely leave the hospital at 6pm. Normal hours usually start at 630am-830pm.

And the nature of the work. You have to be constantly on the move as a doc on the wards. It’s not a sedentary role. Way more exhausting than drafting documents as a lawyer.
Yea but HO/MOPEX lasts 1-3 years on average whereas ur law is a whole career of that
. Also HO has gotten a lot better hiurs wise
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  #9027 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 11:53 AM
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I am an ex-locum GP who switched into Law, so I can comment on this. In theory, you can make a lot in aesthetics but the market is getting saturated nowadays. Most GPs try to dabble into aesthetics but then realise it’s not their cup of tea because it’s a lot about connections.

For example, some aesthetic docs are good friends of MediaCorp artistes and those artistes just exclusively come to their clinic only.

It’s true that it’s also competitive in Law but I will say that if you are an average performer who can survive the slog, 400-500k a year is definitely doable as a salaried partner in B4. Of course the salary is higher as equity or in international firms but that requires skill and connections.

Earnings wise: bottom 40% of law graduate (underperformer)< average med graduate , but average law graduate (50 centile)> average med graduate

Top docs make more than top lawyers but their numbers are in the same minority that it simply isn’t a statistic. For this reason, MP and minister salaries are not pegged to the top 1% of doctors. Because the number is simply too insignificant.
You arent making any sense. How many salaried Big 4 partners are there and how many law graduates are there. The average doctor at 35 years old would be making 250-350+k but by this age many law grads have been unable to take the grind and dropped out to go in house or been unable to make partner. Additionally, nowadays promotions even in big 4 are harder to come by and u really have to justify it by billable hours, revenue,etc. Meanwhile ur 35 year old consultant is working 9-6 and doing teaching, admin, research while the lawyer trying to make partner is slogging to build a boom. Even for the top 10 percent, while the doctor has gone private and is working 9-6 running their own practice, the lawyer is slogging to build their book. Its not as straightforward as u think
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  #9028 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 12:19 PM
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You arent making any sense. How many salaried Big 4 partners are there and how many law graduates are there. The average doctor at 35 years old would be making 250-350+k but by this age many law grads have been unable to take the grind and dropped out to go in house or been unable to make partner. Additionally, nowadays promotions even in big 4 are harder to come by and u really have to justify it by billable hours, revenue,etc. Meanwhile ur 35 year old consultant is working 9-6 and doing teaching, admin, research while the lawyer trying to make partner is slogging to build a boom. Even for the top 10 percent, while the doctor has gone private and is working 9-6 running their own practice, the lawyer is slogging to build their book. Its not as straightforward as u think

Med is a better gamble if your A level grades are mediocre. Check out Newcastle Uni Australia MBBS they only need an ABB score to enter. That kind of low grades will not allow one to enter a reputable law school in the UK. Unlike Med, Law is prestige driven so it will not be wise for someone to do a law degree outside of NUS/SMU/Oxbridge/UCL/LSE/KCL/Durham.

And coincidentally all those unis need AAA to enter.
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  #9029 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 12:32 PM
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Med is a better gamble if your A level grades are mediocre. Check out Newcastle Uni Australia MBBS they only need an ABB score to enter. That kind of low grades will not allow one to enter a reputable law school in the UK. Unlike Med, Law is prestige driven so it will not be wise for someone to do a law degree outside of NUS/SMU/Oxbridge/UCL/LSE/KCL/Durham.

And coincidentally all those unis need AAA to enter.
Don't need AAA to enter NUS or SMU actually. definitely don't need AAA for durham law. Its not about getting into the uni, its about the career itself. Higher floor and ceiling both in Medicine theres no real discussion to be had there. Also a lot of the vetting of documents and reading that corporate lawyers do will definitely be taken over by AI in the next 10-15 years
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  #9030 (permalink)  
Old 14-12-2024, 12:39 PM
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Non surgical specialist in gov hospital here
Just turned full C recently. Earned 360k in total this year
Planning to go private in the next 5 years or so
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