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  #6691 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 12:02 PM
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Hi I've been seeing a lot of posts about how a UK LLM is not very useful, but other than not being super useful is there any harm in doing a LLM? Any reason why I shouldn't do it?

(I mean more like any prejudices resulting from it, not things like cost - am very fortunate that money won't really be a problem, parents are very supportive and I've checked and I can pay for it myself too)

Also because I always see someone bashing on students trying to cure undergrad grades with an LLM, before that person starts scolding me I'm at a good 2:1 now, so I'm not trying to do an LLM to do that. I'm just very interested to study overseas and get a masters because I'm not sure when else I will have to do one and I feel like I'd be happy to do it now, so I just want to check if there are any negative implications/negative mindsets towards it.

Thank you!
I'm nowhere near senior enough to have any actual insight into what goes into hiring decisions, but as someone who was also considering an LLM, the advice that I've gleaned from the earlier posts is that the main negative is the opportunity cost of the time spent on the Masters that could've been time spent in practice (provided practice is the end goal). So just make sure you're willing to benchmark yourself against equivalent actual PQE peers as opposed to against the batch you did undergrad with.

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  #6692 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 12:53 PM
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LOL Funniest Post.

Uh.

1. Justify

2. Control F

3. Convert to PDF

4. Redact

5. Paginate

6. Simple Excel like = SUM ( )
Lol, and cross-reference please.

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  #6693 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 03:54 PM
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Why do you wish to stay in private practice? That would be my first question. Most people stay in private practice because they see it as good money or a viable future career path (partner). I can think of very few other reasons why people stay in private practice.

So here is my two cents. I'm the OP you quoted by the way.

If your end game is to go in-house anyway, then you might as well move now. Regressing in your PQE means taking a somewhat major paycut [pqe3-NQ] and you'll need another 3 to 4 years to match what you're currently earning.

And what happens if in the next 6mths to a year you decide you don't like private practice corp - you will be in an extremely weak negotiation position going in-house since your last drawn pay would be the equivalent to that of an NQ-1pqe. You would also not be eligible to apply for corp-intensive in-house roles, since you do not have the requisite experience in this area of law (at least from a HR perspective). What this means is that you will likely be relying on your liti exp/localisation to pivot into an in-house role - basically, you will be in the exact same position you're in right now - except with a really shitty last drawn pay.

Going in-house now would allow you to at least negotiate for a 20% pay rise from what you're currently earning (maybe not so much in the current economy, but i'd say you still have a good shot at getting a decent pay increase).

Ofc, many will argue that the pay increases for in-house counsels are much slower than private practice. This is true, i went from practice-in-house-practice.... but many of my peers who left practice at the same stage as you still manage to negotiate a decent salary at their respective PQEs. Think 4-5pqe at 8-10k and 6-8 PQE at 10-12K (pre-covid).

It would be interesting to know what you decide in the end... do keep us updated!
OP here who wants to make the switch to corp. Thank you and the others for your replies.

I just went for a Big4 corp interview last Friday and still waiting for the result. Somehow I am hoping that it would be an unfavourable outcome so I don't have to make the difficult decision to start anew and take a paycut.

Do you think it's possible to negotiate my salary if the Big4 makes an offer? A 10% paycut would still place me above NQ level (about 6.5k) and wouldn't be too much of a set back in terms of remuneration.

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  #6694 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 04:43 PM
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If you do an LLM because you want to explore the world, have a bit of a delay before entering the workforce (yeah, I know, millennials, whatever), not happy about Covid job prospects right now, etc. all fine and good.

Just be clear: that is all the LLM will amount to. Don't ask us how to spin it to a recruiter/headhunter/employer, because we're going in circles now. So once again, for the people in the back: It's FKING USELESS FOR EMPLOYMENT.

Sticky this ****, pin it up, whatever - don't ask this question again. Nobody gives a good goddamn where you do your LLM. Harvard, Uptron, whatever, I see anything after LLB that isn't an admission to practice in a different jurisdiction, I don't care. I know you spent more time trying to get tickets to watch the Book of Mormon than on writing your thesis.

Tell me about it at a CPD event - not when I'm looking for minions. Now let's get this thread back on track.
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  #6695 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 04:53 PM
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If you do an LLM because you want to explore the world, have a bit of a delay before entering the workforce (yeah, I know, millennials, whatever), not happy about Covid job prospects right now, etc. all fine and good.

Just be clear: that is all the LLM will amount to. Don't ask us how to spin it to a recruiter/headhunter/employer, because we're going in circles now. So once again, for the people in the back: It's FKING USELESS FOR EMPLOYMENT.

Sticky this ****, pin it up, whatever - don't ask this question again. Nobody gives a good goddamn where you do your LLM. Harvard, Uptron, whatever, I see anything after LLB that isn't an admission to practice in a different jurisdiction, I don't care. I know you spent more time trying to get tickets to watch the Book of Mormon than on writing your thesis.

Tell me about it at a CPD event - not when I'm looking for minions. Now let's get this thread back on track.
To say it's useless is setting yourself up to be wrong. Let's just say the impact will be minimal except for very specific situations.
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  #6696 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 05:10 PM
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I know you spent more time trying to get tickets to watch the Book of Mormon than on writing your thesis.
LOL this is so true
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  #6697 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 05:28 PM
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If you do an LLM because you want to explore the world, have a bit of a delay before entering the workforce (yeah, I know, millennials, whatever), not happy about Covid job prospects right now, etc. all fine and good.

Just be clear: that is all the LLM will amount to. Don't ask us how to spin it to a recruiter/headhunter/employer, because we're going in circles now. So once again, for the people in the back: It's FKING USELESS FOR EMPLOYMENT.

Sticky this ****, pin it up, whatever - don't ask this question again. Nobody gives a good goddamn where you do your LLM. Harvard, Uptron, whatever, I see anything after LLB that isn't an admission to practice in a different jurisdiction, I don't care. I know you spent more time trying to get tickets to watch the Book of Mormon than on writing your thesis.

Tell me about it at a CPD event - not when I'm looking for minions. Now let's get this thread back on track.
LOL this is hilarious. So not toxic and totally healthy on a Monday evening. Where is Uptron btw
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  #6698 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 05:48 PM
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Do examiners keep track of how many times one failed part A? Really struggling.. for those who have failed before and passed later, do you mind sharing how you managed to overcome the exam eventually? Grateful for any advice on ways to improve..
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  #6699 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 06:22 PM
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Unretained trainees, what are your plans?

Wanna form a law firm together?
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  #6700 (permalink)  
Old 22-06-2020, 06:25 PM
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Do examiners keep track of how many times one failed part A? Really struggling.. for those who have failed before and passed later, do you mind sharing how you managed to overcome the exam eventually? Grateful for any advice on ways to improve..
When you finally pass, you get a document setting out each of your attempt(s) and your results for each attempt. So if you attempted land law 4 times, the 4 times will be printed there. e.g.

2016 Session 2
COMPANY LAW - PASS
CRIMINAL LAW - PASS
SINGAPORE LEGAL SYSTEM - PASS
EVIDENCE LAW - PASS
LAND LAW - FAIL

2017 Session 1
LAND LAW - FAIL

2017 Session 2
LAND LAW - FAIL

2018 Session 1
LAND LAW - PASS

It's not to rub salt in your wounds, and you don't have to show this terrible record to anyone (nobody I know has ever asked for it). But you may have to explain why you have this gap between your graduation and starting Part B. It's only natural lah, especially if you graduated 2016 and finally only joined the workforce in like 2020.

Most people can generally explain this away by working as a legal exec or para during this time. But if you stayed at home jacking off and watching anime, too bad.

Which subjects did you fail? If you failed SLS, your degree is probably fake - SLS is the legal equivalent of an IQ test lah, it's impossible to fail.

Evidence law, this one also second easiest lah. It's actually not hard and I dunno how to help you if you failed it.

Criminal law, there was one year they asked how LKY's experiences in WW2 informed the criminal justice system we have today. I still dunno how this is related to criminal law, but if you failed because of a question like that, I totally understand. Other than this sort of boliao question, criminal law is damn easy and if you failed it I dunno how to help you.

Company law, the trick is don't pierce the veil. Apparently Walter Woon doesn't like it if you suggest piercing the veil as an answer. His explanation was that he doesn't know if you know the concept of separate legal personality if you do that. So...yeah. Resist the temptation. The answers may sound like they're designed to trip you up but that's only because you're an inexperienced noob. Enter legal practice and you will see for yourself.

Land law, the trick is read the case law. Sometimes the examiners just borrow from the case law and you might be surprised - the exam question on all fours with a case you studied. Damn boliao but true. Just changed the parties names only.

Obviously if you were weak in law to begin with (eg cannot tell diff between director and shareholder weak, or dunno that a trust isn't a contract) then cannot help you lah, part A by nature presumes you got standard to begin with. If you anyhow your way thru your degree with Book of Mormon etc, too bad for you.


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