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  #6211 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 10:09 PM
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Having been in practice for some time, I am not curious about job-related queries/debates. Rather, I would like to see how people would rank law firms according to their office aesthetics/views.

I will start first:

Clyde & Co Classis (MBFC)
A&G (Marina)
CC (MBFC)
Baker (MBFC)
TSMP (Raffles)
Drew (Raffles)

I would rank R&T on top for their swanky office at marina one but heard they have an open plan office (which I am fairly against, especially for law firms) so I would drop them off the list

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  #6212 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 10:16 PM
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When you say valued, do you mean "good job" and a pat on the back? Your expectations are unrealistic, no litigation department in any firm ever says that. You're a replaceable commodity
hmm not really. i mean that the work is of value and not work that wont improve myself.

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  #6213 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Having been in practice for some time, I am not curious about job-related queries/debates. Rather, I would like to see how people would rank law firms according to their office aesthetics/views.

I will start first:

Clyde & Co Classis (MBFC)
A&G (Marina)
CC (MBFC)
Baker (MBFC)
TSMP (Raffles)
Drew (Raffles)

I would rank R&T on top for their swanky office at marina one but heard they have an open plan office (which I am fairly against, especially for law firms) so I would drop them off the list
I will have to agree that TSMPís views are pretty spectacular for a mid-sized firm.

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  #6214 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 10:32 PM
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Thanks for the list, quite helpful. As a FCH should I be aiming for the local side or the international side? I want the UK payscale as it reflects my grades
A UK FCH is a dime a dozen nowadays, and as a trainee, don't expect to start on the UK scale.

The pecking order of firms in terms of pay for a junior is something like this:

1. US White Shoe Firms (eg Milbank, MoFo, LW, W&C) - these pay over 20k per month but only usually start taking in juniors at 2 PQE and beyond (SG scale)
2. Other US firms (e.g. Dechert) - less than White Shoe Firms but more than Magic/Silver Circle firms (not confirmed)
3. UK Magic or Silver Circle firms (e.g. CC, Links, HSF, A&O, Ashurst, Hogan Lowells - note, L&L side not counted) - these pay around 12-13k per month for 2 PQE (SG scale)
4. BMWL, NRF, Clyde - these pay around 8-10k for 2PQE (not sure about Ascendant though)
5. Big 4 - these pay about 7-8k for 2PQE
6. Firms like WKW, Dentons, TSMP, and other boutiques (e.g. Blackoak or the accounting-linked law firms) pay similar or slightly less than Big 4. These also include some JVs like MPillay and Morgan Lewis).
7. Then you have everyone else. Some of the JVs also fall in this tier like EHE or DMS.

Most of the JVs are scams, the only obviously integrated ones (i.e. where you aren't on local payscale and the place functions as one firm) are BMWL, Clyde, CC (not sure about about the smaller ones though).

TC wise, above the Big 4 only CC & BMWL offer TCs. Although A&O has a UK-linked TC and Ascendant is now offering TCs on behalf of NRF - don't know how integrated they are to NRF though. So if you wanna start as a trainee in Singapore and want to go "above" Big 4, you only have very few choices.


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  #6215 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
A UK FCH is a dime a dozen nowadays, and as a trainee, don't expect to start on the UK scale.

The pecking order of firms in terms of pay for a junior is something like this:

1. US White Shoe Firms (eg Milbank, MoFo, LW, W&C) - these pay over 20k per month but only usually start taking in juniors at 2 PQE and beyond (SG scale)
2. Other US firms (e.g. Dechert) - less than White Shoe Firms but more than Magic/Silver Circle firms (not confirmed)
3. UK Magic or Silver Circle firms (e.g. CC, Links, HSF, A&O, Ashurst, Hogan Lowells - note, L&L side not counted) - these pay around 12-13k per month for 2 PQE (SG scale)
4. BMWL, NRF, Clyde - these pay around 8-10k for 2PQE (not sure about Ascendant though)
5. Big 4 - these pay about 7-8k for 2PQE
6. Firms like WKW, Dentons, TSMP, and other boutiques (e.g. Blackoak or the accounting-linked law firms) pay similar or slightly less than Big 4. These also include some JVs like MPillay and Morgan Lewis).
7. Then you have everyone else. Some of the JVs also fall in this tier like EHE or DMS.

Most of the JVs are scams, the only obviously integrated ones (i.e. where you aren't on local payscale and the place functions as one firm) are BMWL, Clyde, CC (not sure about about the smaller ones though).

TC wise, above the Big 4 only CC & BMWL offer TCs. Although A&O has a UK-linked TC and Ascendant is now offering TCs on behalf of NRF - don't know how integrated they are to NRF though. So if you wanna start as a trainee in Singapore and want to go "above" Big 4, you only have very few choices.

Pretty good and accurate summary! And the first useful post in a while! Agree that most of the FLAs are scams, which is probably why some are already being terminated.
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  #6216 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
A UK FCH is a dime a dozen nowadays, and as a trainee, don't expect to start on the UK scale.

The pecking order of firms in terms of pay for a junior is something like this:

1. US White Shoe Firms (eg Milbank, MoFo, LW, W&C) - these pay over 20k per month but only usually start taking in juniors at 2 PQE and beyond (SG scale)
2. Other US firms (e.g. Dechert) - less than White Shoe Firms but more than Magic/Silver Circle firms (not confirmed)
3. UK Magic or Silver Circle firms (e.g. CC, Links, HSF, A&O, Ashurst, Hogan Lowells - note, L&L side not counted) - these pay around 12-13k per month for 2 PQE (SG scale)
4. BMWL, NRF, Clyde - these pay around 8-10k for 2PQE (not sure about Ascendant though)
5. Big 4 - these pay about 7-8k for 2PQE
6. Firms like WKW, Dentons, TSMP, and other boutiques (e.g. Blackoak or the accounting-linked law firms) pay similar or slightly less than Big 4. These also include some JVs like MPillay and Morgan Lewis).
7. Then you have everyone else. Some of the JVs also fall in this tier like EHE or DMS.

Most of the JVs are scams, the only obviously integrated ones (i.e. where you aren't on local payscale and the place functions as one firm) are BMWL, Clyde, CC (not sure about about the smaller ones though).

TC wise, above the Big 4 only CC & BMWL offer TCs. Although A&O has a UK-linked TC and Ascendant is now offering TCs on behalf of NRF - don't know how integrated they are to NRF though. So if you wanna start as a trainee in Singapore and want to go "above" Big 4, you only have very few choices.
Thanks very useful.

As an aside, how do you guys tahan the hours and stress? Iím 2PQE and feel like quitting already.


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  #6217 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
A UK FCH is a dime a dozen nowadays, and as a trainee, don't expect to start on the UK scale.

The pecking order of firms in terms of pay for a junior is something like this:

1. US White Shoe Firms (eg Milbank, MoFo, LW, W&C) - these pay over 20k per month but only usually start taking in juniors at 2 PQE and beyond (SG scale)
2. Other US firms (e.g. Dechert) - less than White Shoe Firms but more than Magic/Silver Circle firms (not confirmed)
3. UK Magic or Silver Circle firms (e.g. CC, Links, HSF, A&O, Ashurst, Hogan Lowells - note, L&L side not counted) - these pay around 12-13k per month for 2 PQE (SG scale)
4. BMWL, NRF, Clyde - these pay around 8-10k for 2PQE (not sure about Ascendant though)
5. Big 4 - these pay about 7-8k for 2PQE
6. Firms like WKW, Dentons, TSMP, and other boutiques (e.g. Blackoak or the accounting-linked law firms) pay similar or slightly less than Big 4. These also include some JVs like MPillay and Morgan Lewis).
7. Then you have everyone else. Some of the JVs also fall in this tier like EHE or DMS.

Most of the JVs are scams, the only obviously integrated ones (i.e. where you aren't on local payscale and the place functions as one firm) are BMWL, Clyde, CC (not sure about about the smaller ones though).

TC wise, above the Big 4 only CC & BMWL offer TCs. Although A&O has a UK-linked TC and Ascendant is now offering TCs on behalf of NRF - don't know how integrated they are to NRF though. So if you wanna start as a trainee in Singapore and want to go "above" Big 4, you only have very few choices.
Would also add that the scene varies and one shouldn't be too simplistic and look only at tier/firm, for instance, US-qualified tax lawyers in WKW would get far more than the local people. And places like DSC which pay Big 4 rates can pay very well if you get the huge bonus that may come with it.

Also, UK FCHs are, to be honest, not very outstanding in this day and age, given that so many people from the UK have FCHs, unless the FCH is from Oxbridge or (maybe) UCL/LSE (e.g. UCL regularly has a >20% FCH rate, which is not very impressive). For instance, last time any UK FCH could get into JLC with not much difficulty, nowadays, almost all UK grads who get into JLC are scholars and most of them are from Oxbridge (or maybe UCL/LSE at the very least). Heck, even NUS FCH is no longer as valuable given that 10% (>20) people per year get it nowadays (but still more valuable than most of the UK FCHs).
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  #6218 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
A UK FCH is a dime a dozen nowadays, and as a trainee, don't expect to start on the UK scale.

The pecking order of firms in terms of pay for a junior is something like this:

1. US White Shoe Firms (eg Milbank, MoFo, LW, W&C) - these pay over 20k per month but only usually start taking in juniors at 2 PQE and beyond (SG scale)
2. Other US firms (e.g. Dechert) - less than White Shoe Firms but more than Magic/Silver Circle firms (not confirmed)
3. UK Magic or Silver Circle firms (e.g. CC, Links, HSF, A&O, Ashurst, Hogan Lowells - note, L&L side not counted) - these pay around 12-13k per month for 2 PQE (SG scale)
4. BMWL, NRF, Clyde - these pay around 8-10k for 2PQE (not sure about Ascendant though)
5. Big 4 - these pay about 7-8k for 2PQE
6. Firms like WKW, Dentons, TSMP, and other boutiques (e.g. Blackoak or the accounting-linked law firms) pay similar or slightly less than Big 4. These also include some JVs like MPillay and Morgan Lewis).
7. Then you have everyone else. Some of the JVs also fall in this tier like EHE or DMS.

Most of the JVs are scams, the only obviously integrated ones (i.e. where you aren't on local payscale and the place functions as one firm) are BMWL, Clyde, CC (not sure about about the smaller ones though).

TC wise, above the Big 4 only CC & BMWL offer TCs. Although A&O has a UK-linked TC and Ascendant is now offering TCs on behalf of NRF - don't know how integrated they are to NRF though. So if you wanna start as a trainee in Singapore and want to go "above" Big 4, you only have very few choices.
Thank you. This is a great post and it looks quite accurate.
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  #6219 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
A UK FCH is a dime a dozen nowadays, and as a trainee, don't expect to start on the UK scale.

The pecking order of firms in terms of pay for a junior is something like this:

1. US White Shoe Firms (eg Milbank, MoFo, LW, W&C) - these pay over 20k per month but only usually start taking in juniors at 2 PQE and beyond (SG scale)
2. Other US firms (e.g. Dechert) - less than White Shoe Firms but more than Magic/Silver Circle firms (not confirmed)
3. UK Magic or Silver Circle firms (e.g. CC, Links, HSF, A&O, Ashurst, Hogan Lowells - note, L&L side not counted) - these pay around 12-13k per month for 2 PQE (SG scale)
4. BMWL, NRF, Clyde - these pay around 8-10k for 2PQE (not sure about Ascendant though)
5. Big 4 - these pay about 7-8k for 2PQE
6. Firms like WKW, Dentons, TSMP, and other boutiques (e.g. Blackoak or the accounting-linked law firms) pay similar or slightly less than Big 4. These also include some JVs like MPillay and Morgan Lewis).
7. Then you have everyone else. Some of the JVs also fall in this tier like EHE or DMS.

Most of the JVs are scams, the only obviously integrated ones (i.e. where you aren't on local payscale and the place functions as one firm) are BMWL, Clyde, CC (not sure about about the smaller ones though).

TC wise, above the Big 4 only CC & BMWL offer TCs. Although A&O has a UK-linked TC and Ascendant is now offering TCs on behalf of NRF - don't know how integrated they are to NRF though. So if you wanna start as a trainee in Singapore and want to go "above" Big 4, you only have very few choices.
Thanks bro ya I heard of people who think highly of themselves after working at Singapore side of a FLA. They call themselves international, but are paid measly sums of money.

NRF and Ascendant have different payscales - can anyone confirm this? Anyway most FLAs seem to be cutting pay and retrenching.
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  #6220 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2020, 11:15 PM
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Would also add that the scene varies and one shouldn't be too simplistic and look only at tier/firm, for instance, US-qualified tax lawyers in WKW would get far more than the local people. And places like DSC which pay Big 4 rates can pay very well if you get the huge bonus that may come with it.

Also, UK FCHs are, to be honest, not very outstanding in this day and age, given that so many people from the UK have FCHs, unless the FCH is from Oxbridge or (maybe) UCL/LSE (e.g. UCL regularly has a >20% FCH rate, which is not very impressive). For instance, last time any UK FCH could get into JLC with not much difficulty, nowadays, almost all UK grads who get into JLC are scholars and most of them are from Oxbridge (or maybe UCL/LSE at the very least). Heck, even NUS FCH is no longer as valuable given that 10% (>20) people per year get it nowadays (but still more valuable than most of the UK FCHs).
Looking forward, I think what would help many people at this forum would be the question of what would then take an applicant to stand out amongst hundreds of other applicants? We have seen for ourselves that it is very apparent that an associate position has about more than hundreds of applicants be it NQ or 3 PQE level.
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