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Unregistered 29-01-2018 06:26 PM

If it is indeed true that KCL awards 50% first class, then to prospective grads - u know where to go for your law degree. Since first class are held in so high regard in Sg, make a wise decision. No point crying over spilled milk. NUS awards only 10% first class.

Unregistered 29-01-2018 06:31 PM

I assume the US$180k salary for first years that OP is referring to is Cravath. Are you in Cravath? Could you share with us some of your tips or creds on how to land a job at Cravath?

Unregistered 29-01-2018 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104193)
You must be a very lousy oxbridge lawyer. Having the “placing power” to generate starting salaries of 180000USD does not address king’s 65% acceptance rate of applicants and that 50% of law grads are awarded Firsts. When tom dick or harry from innova or rjc can’t get into a local law school because he or she scored AABB in the A levels, the backup option is to enroll in a degree mill where FCH is guaranteed upon enrollment.

Please check your facts before you go around making statements with these baseless numbers

% of first class grads in UK universities, NUS and SMU
://.straitstimes.com/singapore/nus-law-school-to-give-out-more-first-class-honours-to-reflect-rising-quality-of-students

Acceptance rate
s://.whatdotheyknow.com/request/law_number_of_offers_and_accepta#incoming-1097082

Unregistered 29-01-2018 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104197)
I assume the US$180k salary for first years that OP is referring to is Cravath. Are you in Cravath? Could you share with us some of your tips or creds on how to land a job at Cravath?

Not at Cravath unfortunately.

Not that easy to get into but your best bet is to do the LSE/UCL/King's-Columbia JD because that opens up doors to OCI at Columbia or even Wachtell (heard pre-recession bonuses meant 2x 180k USD)
s://.linkedin.com/in/marco-wong-87128b47/
://.wlrk.com/Natalie-SY-Wong/

Alternative is Oxbridge-Harvard LLM, but that depends on market factors and you will need to hustle with connections.

Cravath scale is across most of NY's top firms and sometimes globally, so you don't necessarily need to be at Cravath.
s://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/salary-wars-scorecard-which-firms-have-announced-raises/

But be prepared to be a slave.

Unregistered 29-01-2018 08:40 PM

*Cravath, not columbia.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104201)
Not at Cravath unfortunately.

Not that easy to get into but your best bet is to do the LSE/UCL/King's-Columbia JD because that opens up doors to OCI at Columbia or even Wachtell (heard pre-recession bonuses meant 2x 180k USD)
s://.linkedin.com/in/marco-wong-87128b47/
://.wlrk.com/Natalie-SY-Wong/

Alternative is Oxbridge-Harvard LLM, but that depends on market factors and you will need to hustle with connections.

Cravath scale is across most of NY's top firms and sometimes globally, so you don't necessarily need to be at Cravath.
s://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/salary-wars-scorecard-which-firms-have-announced-raises/

But be prepared to be a slave.


Unregistered 29-01-2018 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104196)
If it is indeed true that KCL awards 50% first class, then to prospective grads - u know where to go for your law degree. Since first class are held in so high regard in Sg, make a wise decision. No point crying over spilled milk. NUS awards only 10% first class.

Totally agree!

Ultimately legal education is a consumer product.
Kings rightly provided a better experience in the ease of obtaining a first.

As long as the number of applicants to Nus law continue to remain high, there is no incentive for them to provide the same product (ease of obtaining a first)

Unless people boycott Nus due to their too stringent honours criteria, if not Nus will continue to be strict with first class.

Then as consumers, what we can do is to find a correct institution who will give us what we want.

Unregistered 29-01-2018 11:05 PM

Thanks! Just out of curiosity, if I am from SMU magna and I go to Columbia to do a JD (self funded), do I have a shot at Wachtell? Or it is your first degree have to be Ivy League?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104201)
Not at Cravath unfortunately.

Not that easy to get into but your best bet is to do the LSE/UCL/King's-Columbia JD because that opens up doors to OCI at Columbia or even Wachtell (heard pre-recession bonuses meant 2x 180k USD)
s://.linkedin.com/in/marco-wong-87128b47/
://.wlrk.com/Natalie-SY-Wong/

Alternative is Oxbridge-Harvard LLM, but that depends on market factors and you will need to hustle with connections.

Cravath scale is across most of NY's top firms and sometimes globally, so you don't necessarily need to be at Cravath.
s://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/salary-wars-scorecard-which-firms-have-announced-raises/

But be prepared to be a slave.


Unregistered 29-01-2018 11:10 PM

My HK friends in Davis Polk, Gibson Dunn, Wachtell all compare their salaries with me. I feel poor whenever I have to disclose my salary in a big four. Is there any chance I can jump to an American firm from a big four doing capital markets? Just a 2:1 local single degree grad no connections, parents retired. 2 years pqe about to marry soon. Fiancé in law as well doing conveyancing.

Unregistered 29-01-2018 11:58 PM

Added to the list - CC/Bakers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104168)
If you widen the threshold to include those who go overseas for their LLMs, the list gets longer.

Postgraduate degree in law
R&T: Lee Eng Beng (Oxford BCL)
Judiciary: Most High Court/CoA judges have LLM from Harvard/Cambridge
SMU: YH Goh (Harvard LLM)
NUS: Simon Chesterman (Oxford DPhil)
RHT: Walter Woon (Cambridge LLM), Roderick Martin (Cambridge LLM)
WongP: Tan Chee Meng (Cambridge LLM)
Essex Court: VK Rajah (Cambridge LLM)
Cabinet: Desmond Lee (Oxford BCL)
A&G: Stanley Lai (Cambridge LLM/PhD)
Clifford Chance: Harpreet Singh Nehal (Harvard LLM)
Bakers: Ai Ai Wong (Harvard LLM)

(Non exhaustive)


Unregistered 30-01-2018 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104206)
Thanks! Just out of curiosity, if I am from SMU magna and I go to Columbia to do a JD (self funded), do I have a shot at Wachtell? Or it is your first degree have to be Ivy League?

LOL

You'd have as much of a shot at Wachtell as every other JD from HYSCCN (harvard yale stanford columbia chicago NYU), ie maybe 3% chance of success.

+/- maybe 2% of your chances for being Asian non-American (minus points for not being American and entirely ZERO reason to hire you, plus points for maybe a token diversity hire).

BTW your SMU manga won't be worth the paper it's printed on because 33% of the HYSCCN cohort are prolly some summa cum laudes from the ivy leagues.

Unregistered 30-01-2018 09:23 AM

An SMU degree is only worth as much as the toilet paper i use every morning

Unregistered 30-01-2018 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104212)
An SMU degree is only worth as much as the toilet paper i use every morning

i'm worried for your fingers since the amount of toilet paper you use is that pathetic, as pathetic as your bank balances

Unregistered 30-01-2018 09:45 PM

Advice to law grads / law students:
As someone who has been following the career paths of successful lawyers quite closely - below are the key indicators to predict how far a law graduate will go in his/her careers. Note: these are just indicators to predict success. There are many other successful graduates without such indicators but go on to be very successful nonetheless. But these are key signposts that will be good to have (correlation).

1. First class Honours
2. Dean’s List (the more semesters the better)
3. Valedictorian
4. Stint as a JLC
5. Oxbridge degree
6. BCL/LLM from a top university (Ivy League + Oxbridge)
7. Being placed on the Order of Merit / SILE Commendation List for PLC / Part B of the Bar Exams
8. Starting out career in an international firm/magic circle

The more you have the greater chance of success.

Unregistered 31-01-2018 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104236)
Advice to law grads / law students:
As someone who has been following the career paths of successful lawyers quite closely - below are the key indicators to predict how far a law graduate will go in his/her careers. Note: these are just indicators to predict success. There are many other successful graduates without such indicators but go on to be very successful nonetheless. But these are key signposts that will be good to have (correlation).

1. First class Honours
2. Dean’s List (the more semesters the better)
3. Valedictorian
4. Stint as a JLC
5. Oxbridge degree
6. BCL/LLM from a top university (Ivy League + Oxbridge)
7. Being placed on the Order of Merit / SILE Commendation List for PLC / Part B of the Bar Exams
8. Starting out career in an international firm/magic circle

The more you have the greater chance of success.

This isn't helpful in this forum. Of course these guys will succeed.
What we want to know is how a 2:1 from a 2nd tier UK uni , or 2:2 from local uni, with average part b results , and no connections can get a coveted job.

This is the average and mediocre demographics of the ppl that is actually active in the forum.

So please help us.

Unregistered 31-01-2018 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104239)
This isn't helpful in this forum. Of course these guys will succeed.
What we want to know is how a 2:1 from a 2nd tier UK uni , or 2:2 from local uni, with average part b results , and no connections can get a coveted job.

This is the average and mediocre demographics of the ppl that is actually active in the forum.

So please help us.

Had a few friends like that. Usually it turned out one of two ways. One, you apply to hundreds of jobs, get no response, then literally give up and change degrees or try to work in another field.

Two, you get all and any vaguely law-related job possible to boost your resume. Usually courtroom staff ,like typists, or as a legal secretary, or even multi-year intern. Once your resume is sufficiently bolstered, the place you've been working at to prove your steel might make you a full lawyer, or you'll find a job elsewhere in a small to average-sized firm.

Unregistered 31-01-2018 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104240)
Had a few friends like that. Usually it turned out one of two ways. One, you apply to hundreds of jobs, get no response, then literally give up and change degrees or try to work in another field.

Two, you get all and any vaguely law-related job possible to boost your resume. Usually courtroom staff ,like typists, or as a legal secretary, or even multi-year intern. Once your resume is sufficiently bolstered, the place you've been working at to prove your steel might make you a full lawyer, or you'll find a job elsewhere in a small to average-sized firm.

That’s the nature of a law degree. With the exception of litigation, a law degree has little, if not no value, to corporate work in a law firm. Unlike medicine where a medical doctor is held in very high regard regardless of the class of Honours (simply because medicine doesn’t make that distinction), law is very image / reputation driven. Top clients only want to pay top dollar to a law firm that has a string of top Ivy League/Oxbridge lawyers.

In short, if you come from a third rated university, you should either quit or go do a LLM from an Ivy League / Oxbridge but bear in mind that recent admission pattern shows you need to be top 5% of cohort for LLB and multiple prizes for postgrad law in Oxbridge. Even so this is no guarantee. I’ve seen top first class getting rejected by Oxbridge. Harvard admission is slightly less academic based and has more flexibility.

Other than that, if you have a lot of money and are thinking of going overseas, do medicine. It’s a more secure career. Alternatively try applying for postgrad medicine if your law career doesn’t work out.

Law is so reputation based and so much emphasis is placed on brand name/ glamour and prestige that it’s very hard to do well in the industry without outstanding academics.

Unregistered 31-01-2018 09:16 AM

My pupil master Davinder Singh was only a second lower from NUS.

Unregistered 31-01-2018 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104247)
My pupil master Davinder Singh was only a second lower from NUS.

from what i observe, i believe the demographics back then and today is very much different... as there are more supply of lawyers, people has the luxury to choose so long they have the money to afford...

hence the even greater disparity between uni and class of honors

Unregistered 31-01-2018 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104247)
My pupil master Davinder Singh was only a second lower from NUS.

He won the Jessup... That's a higher honour than any FCH

Unregistered 31-01-2018 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104258)
He won the Jessup... That's a higher honour than any FCH

be that as it may, any reason why a Jessup winner is not getting at least a 2nd upper? bell curve?? or structure of academic curriculum isn't in line with real life?

Unregistered 31-01-2018 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104240)
Had a few friends like that. Usually it turned out one of two ways. One, you apply to hundreds of jobs, get no response, then literally give up and change degrees or try to work in another field.

Two, you get all and any vaguely law-related job possible to boost your resume. Usually courtroom staff ,like typists, or as a legal secretary, or even multi-year intern. Once your resume is sufficiently bolstered, the place you've been working at to prove your steel might make you a full lawyer, or you'll find a job elsewhere in a small to average-sized firm.

That's a bit extreme la. Small Chinatown point or toa payoh HDB hub firms got la. I've never heard of law grads so desperate as to become typists or legal secretaries. Stop fear mongering pls.

There are positions out there for lawyers. Maybe not everybody will work in a glass skyscraper overlooking Marina bay but one just needs to look hard enough. This is coming from someone who qualified at the peak of the glut between 2014 to 2018 call.

Unregistered 01-02-2018 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104284)
That's a bit extreme la. Small Chinatown point or toa payoh HDB hub firms got la. I've never heard of law grads so desperate as to become typists or legal secretaries. Stop fear mongering pls.

There are positions out there for lawyers. Maybe not everybody will work in a glass skyscraper overlooking Marina bay but one just needs to look hard enough. This is coming from someone who qualified at the peak of the glut between 2014 to 2018 call.

Sources say that firm in Marina Bay has been taking huge overdrafts. How long more till it goes into insolvency?

Unregistered 01-02-2018 09:19 AM

STOP the lies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104284)
That's a bit extreme la. Small Chinatown point or toa payoh HDB hub firms got la. I've never heard of law grads so desperate as to become typists or legal secretaries. Stop fear mongering pls.

There are positions out there for lawyers. Maybe not everybody will work in a glass skyscraper overlooking Marina bay but one just needs to look hard enough. This is coming from someone who qualified at the peak of the glut between 2014 to 2018 call.

Fully agree with you. I am from a third rate university without graduating with honors. Got offered to get retain in the firm I did my TC in and I also had a few associates offers from smaller law firms after getting called to the bar during 2017 Mass call. I decided to turn down these opportunities and become an in house counsel for better working hours.

I didnt like the fear mongering from some people, especially some lawyers in my cohort. When I turned down the offer to stay in the firm I did my TC in, one of my lawyer friend said I was committing suicide and that people are taking up lawyer positions for as low as SGD 1500 to SGD 2000. Well I turned a blind eye to whatever nonsense he was sprouting as I certainty didnt receive any such low ball offers.

So please stop the fear mongering and the lies. You are trained to be a lawyer, so be one. That is the reason why you went to law school and called to the Singapore bar as an advocate and solicitor.

Unregistered 01-02-2018 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104286)
Sources say that firm in Marina Bay has been taking huge overdrafts. How long more till it goes into insolvency?

Check with your sauces lor...

Unregistered 01-02-2018 10:26 PM

Small firms really $2-3k or less. But working hours flexible.

Unregistered 02-02-2018 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104304)
Small firms really $2-3k or less. But working hours flexible.

even after passing part A & B and being called to the bar? i can accept mid to high $3k but anything below $3k is really miserable.

Unregistered 03-02-2018 09:40 AM

Anyone doing rlt ptc now? I am appalled that my firm staff when assigning me work just throw it to me to figure out how to do by myself instead of giving clear instructions

also I feel a lack of culture to mentor and groom young lawyers

is it supposed to be like that in Singapore or am I the only person facing this issue.

I did internships in London before and the partners and assoc were willing to guide and explain.

But in Singapore it is like a different story. People seems rather selfish.

Unregistered 03-02-2018 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104344)
Anyone doing rlt ptc now? I am appalled that my firm staff when assigning me work just throw it to me to figure out how to do by myself instead of giving clear instructions

also I feel a lack of culture to mentor and groom young lawyers

is it supposed to be like that in Singapore or am I the only person facing this issue.

I did internships in London before and the partners and assoc were willing to guide and explain.

But in Singapore it is like a different story. People seems rather selfish.

Cos if the seniors teach you in no time you will replace them.

Unregistered 03-02-2018 02:42 PM

Anyone knows how to get a TC with Clifford Chance? I’ve seen some LinkedIn profiles, some have unbeatable CVS, but there are also some who managed to get in without a first class degree?

Unregistered 03-02-2018 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104354)
Anyone knows how to get a TC with Clifford Chance? I’ve seen some LinkedIn profiles, some have unbeatable CVS, but there are also some who managed to get in without a first class degree?

FCH from degree mill KCL is not "unbeatable".

Unregistered 05-02-2018 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104331)
even after passing part A & B and being called to the bar? i can accept mid to high $3k but anything below $3k is really miserable.

Agree. Please do not take up anything $3k or lower. It is not worth the money to put your practicing certificate on the line. Mid to high $3k should be the lowest your starting pay should be. Don't let law firms take advantage of you.

Unregistered 05-02-2018 07:07 PM

Does a NUS LLb grad need to do a USA LLM in order to take the New York Bar exam?
Or can straight away take the NY Bar exam straight after obtaining a NUS LLB?

Unregistered 05-02-2018 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104416)
Does a NUS LLb grad need to do a USA LLM in order to take the New York Bar exam?
Or can straight away take the NY Bar exam straight after obtaining a NUS LLB?

You can take the NY Bar exam straight. But your employment chances at a NY firm are close to zilch because your NUS degree will be worthless in the eyes of a US recruiter. Even a degree from a sixth rate UK/Australian uni or degree mill KCL is placed in higher regard. Don't believe me? Go look at, say, the assoc list at Sidley Austin Sg and see how many Sg grads there are compared to UK and Aussie grads.

Unregistered 05-02-2018 11:08 PM

anyone knows what the payscale is like for silver circle / magic circle / us firms in singapore? considering running away from a big4 sweatshop...

Unregistered 06-02-2018 12:12 AM

anyone has the latest figure for Big 4 in Singapore?
Want to run ahead of my small firm

Unregistered 06-02-2018 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104418)
You can take the NY Bar exam straight. But your employment chances at a NY firm are close to zilch because your NUS degree will be worthless in the eyes of a US recruiter. Even a degree from a sixth rate UK/Australian uni or degree mill KCL is placed in higher regard. Don't believe me? Go look at, say, the assoc list at Sidley Austin Sg and see how many Sg grads there are compared to UK and Aussie grads.


How to apply?

Unregistered 06-02-2018 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104418)
You can take the NY Bar exam straight. But your employment chances at a NY firm are close to zilch because your NUS degree will be worthless in the eyes of a US recruiter. Even a degree from a sixth rate UK/Australian uni or degree mill KCL is placed in higher regard. Don't believe me? Go look at, say, the assoc list at Sidley Austin Sg and see how many Sg grads there are compared to UK and Aussie grads.

Quoted for truth... National University of Singapore might as well be Thammasat University for the anglo-saxon white middle-aged male reviewing your 'NUS is 12th in the world' CV on 8th Avenue (Cravath, Swaine & Moore's office)

Unregistered 06-02-2018 05:26 AM

Should I go UK to get my law degree?

My main concern is that I don’t want to get a Second Lower Honours degree from NUS

Unregistered 06-02-2018 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104426)
Should I go UK to get my law degree?

My main concern is that I don’t want to get a Second Lower Honours degree from NUS

There's SIM for the likes of you

Unregistered 06-02-2018 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 104426)
Should I go UK to get my law degree?

My main concern is that I don’t want to get a Second Lower Honours degree from NUS

Try KCL, firsts are handed out generously


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