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  #2801 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2018, 12:25 AM
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Hi all,

I've been following this thread for a while and have observed quite a lot of good information here, though there is the occasional divergence from the topic. I'm looking for some advice and perspectives from seniors/lawyers who've been or in or have friends in similar situations.

If you had a choice to do a TC at an international firm in singapore (think a&o/cc/bakers) or at a US firm(s) in London (with no/limited presence in singapore but not necessarily hk/asia- think kirkland/debevoise/skadden), where would you prefer to do your TC at and why?

I'm especially interested to know:

- what advantages I would gain from starting at CC singapore (that would make up for the opportunity cost of working in london/a US firm) = I'm aware that CC and A&O sends their trainees for 6-month secondments to London and there is the prospect of dual-qualification

- how the private equity market is like in singapore? if anyone can expand on whether PE experience in a firm in london would be valued in singapore, this would be helpful! (interested in this especially because i heard that the PE market in singapore is quite dry?)

thanks for your help guys! any insight would really be appreciated

First off I think US firms don't give out TCs in Singapore because there's no training requirement for US jurisdictions, e.g. you just sit for the NY bar exams. You get hired straight as an associate out of law school.

The question then is why would they hire an LLB grad when the min requirement for most of their people is a JD?

Most people who are Commonwealth qualified lawyers have at least 4 + years of experience at Big 4 or MC before they lateral to US firms.

This may be different in London where they do have qualifying training programmes? Correct me if I'm unaware.

As regards prestige, think of MC firms as Officer Cadet School (OCS), Big 4 firms as Specialist Cadet School (SCS) and US firms as commissioned officers LTA and above.

MC firms are known as good training grounds, good culture generally and solid prestige / repudiation. I believe that is also the reputation they have in their homebase London.

OTOH, US firms are known for long hours but good pay and prestige beats MC hands own, even in London. Salaries approach investment banking levels. You basically get "beasted" and its sink or swim but your exit options are excellent.

If you can secure a training programme for a US firm in the City I would think the answer is a no brainer. There are already 2 advantages: (1) London > Singapore, (2) US firm (generally) > MC firm...Unless you're homesick.

If you can get qualified in UK, there's no problem coming in as a foreign practitioner in Singapore.

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  #2802 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2018, 08:56 AM
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First off I think US firms don't give out TCs in Singapore because there's no training requirement for US jurisdictions, e.g. you just sit for the NY bar exams. You get hired straight as an associate out of law school.

The question then is why would they hire an LLB grad when the min requirement for most of their people is a JD?

Most people who are Commonwealth qualified lawyers have at least 4 + years of experience at Big 4 or MC before they lateral to US firms.

This may be different in London where they do have qualifying training programmes? Correct me if I'm unaware.

As regards prestige, think of MC firms as Officer Cadet School (OCS), Big 4 firms as Specialist Cadet School (SCS) and US firms as commissioned officers LTA and above.

MC firms are known as good training grounds, good culture generally and solid prestige / repudiation. I believe that is also the reputation they have in their homebase London.

OTOH, US firms are known for long hours but good pay and prestige beats MC hands own, even in London. Salaries approach investment banking levels. You basically get "beasted" and its sink or swim but your exit options are excellent.

If you can secure a training programme for a US firm in the City I would think the answer is a no brainer. There are already 2 advantages: (1) London > Singapore, (2) US firm (generally) > MC firm...Unless you're homesick.

If you can get qualified in UK, there's no problem coming in as a foreign practitioner in Singapore.
OP here. Thanks for the insight, will certainly take this into consideration.

I quite enjoyed your use of NS analogies, it really does help put things into perspective (interesting that you assumed I was male though haha).

I suppose my main concern was that US firms handle much PE work, and knowing very well their advantages (i.e. pay, smaller intake, etc.), I can't help but wonder if starting out at reputable international firms in sg (that take in trainees) would be more beneficial. Especially since they offer the prospect of dual-qualification in singapore and english law.

To answer your questions:

- in London, most US firms have qualifying training programmes similar to the UK firms (i.e. 2 years TC in 4 seats plus LPC).

- I believe the only US firm which offers sg TCs is Latham & Watkins (but only English-qualified, so they will have to do the LPC in London). Not sure about the other JLVs (other than a&o/cc/bakers) except the ones I mentioned (which all offer TCs- bakers is only sg qualification though).

Thanks! Would be happy to hear others' thoughts too

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  #2803 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2018, 10:31 PM
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OP here. Thanks for the insight, will certainly take this into consideration.

I quite enjoyed your use of NS analogies, it really does help put things into perspective (interesting that you assumed I was male though haha).

I suppose my main concern was that US firms handle much PE work, and knowing very well their advantages (i.e. pay, smaller intake, etc.), I can't help but wonder if starting out at reputable international firms in sg (that take in trainees) would be more beneficial. Especially since they offer the prospect of dual-qualification in singapore and english law.

To answer your questions:

- in London, most US firms have qualifying training programmes similar to the UK firms (i.e. 2 years TC in 4 seats plus LPC).

- I believe the only US firm which offers sg TCs is Latham & Watkins (but only English-qualified, so they will have to do the LPC in London). Not sure about the other JLVs (other than a&o/cc/bakers) except the ones I mentioned (which all offer TCs- bakers is only sg qualification though).

Thanks! Would be happy to hear others' thoughts too
No point being dual-qualified unless you have a specific interest in domestic work in Singapore. You will definitely get better training in London (be it with a reputable US firm that is not too specialised or a MC firm) and you always have the option of moving back to Singapore upon qualification or a few years down the road. Many people have moved back to Singapore upon qualifying in the UK - although be wary some firms may tend to pick a domestic candidate over an international one who does not show a commitment to London.

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  #2804 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2018, 12:49 AM
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Such an unequal world.
Here I am trying to secure a TC as I am graduating.

And forum has people who are choosing between International firms and big 4
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  #2805 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2018, 05:29 AM
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Such an unequal world.
Here I am trying to secure a TC as I am graduating.

And forum has people who are choosing between International firms and big 4
You were born to the wrong parents.
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  #2806 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2018, 11:56 AM
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Samuel Ling

ASKING QUESTIONS AS KWAY TEOW
to all potential kway teows out there: i know we seniors can be intimidating on fb. i apologise if my tone was harsh on my fb post. perhaps i should clarify. i am annoyed only with those that are hiding behind anonymity because they are competitive and are doing it for bell curve reasons, which i know is a thing. if that is not you, then i am not disappointed in you.

personally i have no quarrel with people who are posting as kway teow because they are shy. this is, after all, a mini overheard, and people are judgy. it is this judgmental culture that i am instead upset about.

so don't be shy, just use your real name to ask questions. if you get judged for asking about mods, the problem does not lie with you. and yes, if you are still terrified, just go ahead and post as kway teow. as long as you are careful, it's impossible to figure out who you are.

ASKING FOR MUGGERS AS KWAY TEOW
as for asking for muggers, in an ideal world, all info will be freely shared. but since this is not an ideal world, make friends and learn to network, just like the real world outside law school. spend some effort finding out who has taken the module before (scroll down this thread and see who has responded, if nobody has, ask your friends. if you don't have any, you may find this is not the right profession for you) and ask them directly.

while it may not have been the intention, an anonymous open jio ("hey who has the latest xxx muggers") just comes off as lazy and entitled: you get to enjoy anonymity, whereas any generous senior will have to take the initiative to stand up and help you, while himself/herself potentially getting inundated with mugger requests. i think people are in general more accepting of people who ask as themselves. i will usually contact them by PM if i know where to get those muggers (mainly cos i don't want to get inundated with requests).

most importantly, when you ask, do so *humbly* and *sincerely*. most people i know are willing to share if you are on friendly terms, and ask nicely (again, this is where some social skills play a role. someone who makes an effort to be friendly will have more success here).

this muggers thing is really sensitive and is a bit of a black art, and as i said in an ideal world this won't be the case, but because this isn't an ideal world, learn the unwritten rules, make friends and be resourceful. these same skills will serve you well in practice.

Are you the infamous sam from C&*, aka douchebag from NUS who sabos everybody
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  #2807 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2018, 09:24 AM
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I can't make up my mind whether I want to stay on at my current firm after my TC is over.
I am not interested in the work at all, but the hours are relatively better than most other places. What should I do?
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  #2808 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2018, 01:02 PM
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I can't make up my mind whether I want to stay on at my current firm after my TC is over.
I am not interested in the work at all, but the hours are relatively better than most other places. What should I do?
Wait... are you from a certain firm in MBFC?
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  #2809 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2018, 02:43 PM
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Wait... are you from a certain firm in MBFC?
How did you know?
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  #2810 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2018, 05:12 PM
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Is the market very bad? A very ups mooter taking on legal exec role at a firm in mbfc? Is there advantages to legal exec role?
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