Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am a junior associate (1PQE) and I constantly get shouted and yelled at by another senior associate (4PQE). We work closely together and everytime she talks to me she puts on an extremely negative and frustrating front. I tend to get nervous talking and answering her as her pessimism would inevitably affect me. I understand from her point of view, she is frustrated as she needs to constantly check and review my work. I make many mistakes and I understand that my work is not up to standard. However, the workplace seems very toxic for me and I feel stiffled as I cannot do much to improve the situation - its becoming a never ending cycle. What should I do? Is that my fault since I am not meeting up to standards?

You must first critically examine what are these mistakes. Are they careless ones that could've been avoided with proper/conscientious checking, or are they mistakes due to lack of domain knowledge due to lack of proper briefing/guidance (e.g. going down the wrong track or tangent)?

If the former, then it's understandable why she's getting mad at you. While abusive conduct should not be condoned, the fact is that carelessness is doubling her workload and squeezing her time to meet other KPIs. If she cannot trust you to get the easily correctable errors in order, she cannot trust the entirety of your work. You are just a liability to the team, to put in bluntly, and it is unfair to foist your mistakes on her time. Whilst we would all want to be extremely professional Mother Teresas, the reality is that we're humans, and in a stressed out profession like law, my annoyance will definitely show at juniors who make repeated mistakes due to lack of diligence.

If the latter, then the fault lies on the mid levels and she has no business being mad at you. But it is unhelpful (for a junior in your position) to try to attribute blame. Because you will always lose vis-a-vis a senior associate who has proven herself invaluable to the partner(s). To move forward, try to proactively ask for guidance and clarify any doubts as soon as you get every assignment. Position it as: by spending some time clarifying my questions now, I will save you & the team time in producing a better work product which doesn't need to be revised so extensively (by her) down the line.

Remember, your job as a junior is to make your seniors' and partners' lives easier. oftentimes that's the only value you can possibly add at this stage. A junior that cannot be trusted with getting careless mistakes in order, will not last long in any team.

As to whether the culture is truly toxic, this is something only you can assess honestly. Is the angst directed solely against you, or is it pervasive and widespread to other juniors in your team too?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am a junior associate (1PQE) and I constantly get shouted and yelled at by another senior associate (4PQE). We work closely together and everytime she talks to me she puts on an extremely negative and frustrating front. I tend to get nervous talking and answering her as her pessimism would inevitably affect me. I understand from her point of view, she is frustrated as she needs to constantly check and review my work. I make many mistakes and I understand that my work is not up to standard. However, the workplace seems very toxic for me and I feel stiffled as I cannot do much to improve the situation - its becoming a never ending cycle. What should I do? Is that my fault since I am not meeting up to standards?

Happens all the time. Generally, both sides are at fault in such situations. The junior for making mistakes (which is to be expected because juniors are called juniors for a reason), the senior for not knowing how to manage juniors and cater time to review juniors' work (also to be expected because mid-level seniors are also "juniors" when it comes to people management skills).

In your position, I would suggest just working on improving yourself and try to insulate yourself from the negativity as much as you can. If the situation is so unbearable that it impacts your performance and learning, you should consider leaving.

When I get fully qualified should the seccies address me as
Mr. XYZ or should they address me by my first name?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You must first critically examine what are these mistakes. Are they careless ones that could've been avoided with proper/conscientious checking, or are they mistakes due to lack of domain knowledge due to lack of proper briefing/guidance (e.g. going down the wrong track or tangent)?

If the former, then it's understandable why she's getting mad at you. While abusive conduct should not be condoned, the fact is that carelessness is doubling her workload and squeezing her time to meet other KPIs. If she cannot trust you to get the easily correctable errors in order, she cannot trust the entirety of your work. You are just a liability to the team, to put in bluntly, and it is unfair to foist your mistakes on her time. Whilst we would all want to be extremely professional Mother Teresas, the reality is that we're humans, and in a stressed out profession like law, my annoyance will definitely show at juniors who make repeated mistakes due to lack of diligence.

If the latter, then the fault lies on the mid levels and she has no business being mad at you. But it is unhelpful (for a junior in your position) to try to attribute blame. Because you will always lose vis-a-vis a senior associate who has proven herself invaluable to the partner(s). To move forward, try to proactively ask for guidance and clarify any doubts as soon as you get every assignment. Position it as: by spending some time clarifying my questions now, I will save you & the team time in producing a better work product which doesn't need to be revised so extensively (by her) down the line.

Remember, your job as a junior is to make your seniors' and partners' lives easier. oftentimes that's the only value you can possibly add at this stage. A junior that cannot be trusted with getting careless mistakes in order, will not last long in any team.

As to whether the culture is truly toxic, this is something only you can assess honestly. Is the angst directed solely against you, or is it pervasive and widespread to other juniors in your team too?

Thanks for breaking down the situation, which really helps to understand from the senior's point of view. I tend to make the same mistakes several times, and it is due to a lack of understanding from my end. Sometimes I do not even realise what I do not understand. It is getting increasingly difficult to ask questions given that she already has a poor impression of me and due to such lack of trust. It drives me depressed as I wonder if law is suitable for my personality (due to me being prone to careless, inattentive etc.). I am unsure how to solve this issue, and it seems like I am not improving quick enough.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When I get fully qualified should the seccies address me as
Mr. XYZ or should they address me by my first name?

What the **** kind of question is this?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thanks for breaking down the situation, which really helps to understand from the senior's point of view. I tend to make the same mistakes several times, and it is due to a lack of understanding from my end. Sometimes I do not even realise what I do not understand. It is getting increasingly difficult to ask questions given that she already has a poor impression of me and due to such lack of trust. It drives me depressed as I wonder if law is suitable for my personality (due to me being prone to careless, inattentive etc.). I am unsure how to solve this issue, and it seems like I am not improving quick enough.

Wow. Lots to unpack here.

If you’re careless, there are ways around it. But you have to figure out your own process. I started out being careless too. But I took it upon myself to ask my seniors how they check the work, what systems they use, and what they look out for. If it takes you creating your own proofreading cheat sheet, that’s that you have to do. Unfortunately, if you’re being paid a good sum of money to not make careless mistakes (which, honestly, is the bare ****ing minimum as a lawyer), then you jolly well find a way to make it work. If you don’t want to do this, or don’t have it in you to do it, then I think you have your answer.

As for your lack of understanding, I find it perplexing that people can do the work or read the document without absorbing the contents. That’s just blind reading. You don’t get paid to do blind reading. You should try at least. Personally, I found the first couple of years difficult because I was focused on nailing the nitty gritty things before I could piece them together and see the big picture. But once that happened, I felt like I learnt a lot faster.

The fact that you are unsure about how to go about improving is worrying. After graduation, no one is going to spoon feed you the answers (or even how to get the answers). You have to find your own way of doing it. If you maintain this mentality… I’m afraid you might not be cut out for any high-paying, high importance job.

My 2 cents.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Wow. Lots to unpack here.

If you’re careless, there are ways around it. But you have to figure out your own process. I started out being careless too. But I took it upon myself to ask my seniors how they check the work, what systems they use, and what they look out for. If it takes you creating your own proofreading cheat sheet, that’s that you have to do. Unfortunately, if you’re being paid a good sum of money to not make careless mistakes (which, honestly, is the bare ****ing minimum as a lawyer), then you jolly well find a way to make it work. If you don’t want to do this, or don’t have it in you to do it, then I think you have your answer.

As for your lack of understanding, I find it perplexing that people can do the work or read the document without absorbing the contents. That’s just blind reading. You don’t get paid to do blind reading. You should try at least. Personally, I found the first couple of years difficult because I was focused on nailing the nitty gritty things before I could piece them together and see the big picture. But once that happened, I felt like I learnt a lot faster.

The fact that you are unsure about how to go about improving is worrying. After graduation, no one is going to spoon feed you the answers (or even how to get the answers). You have to find your own way of doing it. If you maintain this mentality… I’m afraid you might not be cut out for any high-paying, high importance job.

My 2 cents.

I agree with all these but let's not kid ourselves that being a junior lawyer is HIGH paying or HIGH importance. At least not at the market rates that B4 and other local firms are paying their NQs to 4PQEs.

We are, at best, paid moderately well (compared to other industries) in return for the firm owning most of our waking hours. But all junior associates are very replaceable cogs in the machine.

Meanwhile, Bakers london have bumped NQ pay to GBP 118K per annum (SGD 203K p.a.)

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I agree with all these but let's not kid ourselves that being a junior lawyer is HIGH paying or HIGH importance. At least not at the market rates that B4 and other local firms are paying their NQs to 4PQEs.

We are, at best, paid moderately well (compared to other industries) in return for the firm owning most of our waking hours. But all junior associates are very replaceable cogs in the machine.

Meanwhile, Bakers london have bumped NQ pay to GBP 118K per annum (SGD 203K p.a.)

Jesus Christ back to the same stupid crap topics again. Why the hell do we keep comparing salaries across different markets? Anyone with with a brain would know that it’s not a meaningful comparison since the markets are vastly different.

Also, junior associates are the same everywhere. Replaceable and “moderately paid” when compared to investment bankers, buy-side folks and sometimes asset management. Like anyone in a law firm, really. So the argument doesn’t really hold water.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Jesus Christ back to the same stupid crap topics again. Why the hell do we keep comparing salaries across different markets? Anyone with with a brain would know that it’s not a meaningful comparison since the markets are vastly different.

Also, junior associates are the same everywhere. Replaceable and “moderately paid” when compared to investment bankers, buy-side folks and sometimes asset management. Like anyone in a law firm, really. So the argument doesn’t really hold water.

Who made u gatekeeper over what salary topics can be discussed on a salary forum? We will discuss whatever the we like.

If we keep circle jerking around the usual local firm pay, there isn't anything else to discuss. Let's just close down this thread.

you all keep jerking non stop