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  #1701 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2017, 10:37 PM
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Thks for the advice.
I am considering applying GLB/JD (SMU / UNISIM) next year. Hopefuly economic conditions will be good when I graduate in 4 years time and by then there will be a shortage of lawyers. Its just economic cycle right? [no, it is not just an economic cycle. There is a fundamental shift which the layman does not see where lawyers are suffering from fee compression] However I will be 39 by then. I hope to switch to be a barrister on TV and argue in court. [being a litigator in real life is very different from what you see on TV. You spend the whole day listening to you boss who is the first chair presenting the case while your email keeps piling up with work to be done after 6 pm]

What are the perceptions of GLB/JD people? [old people, some of whom are really weird, but if you are really serious about the course, who cares?]
What about most of other GLB/JD? [huh?]
What are their stories like? [no "standard" story.. Some do it because they really like studying, some because of the perceived better prospects]
Do they have problems getting TCs? [too general a question. It depends on whether they are too old to train, whether they have the calibre etc etc. I would say they have the same problems as everyone else unless you are too old (perhaps over 35) in which case age comes into play]
What are the law firms perception of them? [see above. It can work for you (since you have a prior degree) or against you if you are too old or too odd]
ARe they just older and so lack the drive and ambitions and also cannot be trained from scratch? [see above]
Any difference between GLB and JD candidate in terms of quality? [i think UNISIM is too new a law school to answer this question but between nus and SMU, it is the same issues between nus law students vs smu ones]
Can elaborate what does 'solid personally and professionally' mean?
Hi

Let me help you a little.

See my responses in square brackets above. How do I know about GLB/JD? Been there done that.

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  #1702 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:30 AM
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I'm the one who posted those figures.

Agree with you that the chances of your generic NUS and SMU fresh grad entering an international firm is next to nil since most don't hire straight out of our usual 4 year LLB prog. They give a 2 year discount for non US JD.

But very few doesn't mean none. The stats are what they are. 99% of business grads don't make it to bulge bracket investment banking or private equity either but the salaries for these are available in the local market.

NUS alone has a fair few who have made the jump after slogging it out 2-3 years at big 5-6. Being a small community we like to keep tabs on who is working at where and earning what

You'll be surprised how many US and UK firms have small offices here that hire 1 to 2 local qualified lawyers and pay them according to what they pay their people back home. These are not your usual high profile magic circle giants but they're quietly under the radar doing substantial transactions here.

I don't think anybody will disagree with you that the market is bad for fresh grads. I'm sure most will know to temper their expectations accordingly given the spate of lawyers leaving the law and oversupply newspaper articles running ad naseum
Sure, but being well versed in behavioural economics Iíd like to point you to the famous work by Kahneman and Tversky in 1979 where it was found that people consistently overweight small probabilities while narrow framing their expected outcomes.

Itís a well studied and empirically verified phenomenon which explains why so many people buy the lottery in the hopes of winning a big jackpot when statistically their chances of striking it big are one in the next thousand generations or so of their family bloodline.

The chances are so infinitesimally small that it is all but irrelevant for the NUS/SMU grad, even if they graduated at the top of their class. Even the Latham partner someone posted elsewhere in the thread did his LLM at Harvard straight after his nus undergrad did he not? And even so, letís be honest, Latham is no Cravath, Sullivan or Wachtell is it?

Far too often people point to these stats and say someone went to CC, why canít I? And these would be highly ambitious undergraduates who have probably graduated at the top of their JCs and feel the world is their oyster. Yet, realise that everyone in law school is thinking exactly as you are, and is equally accomplished to have got in. The one percent of the one percent is a frighteningly small figure that is well in the range of the small probabilities that people overestimate in the study I have cited above.



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  #1703 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:40 AM
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Sure, but being well versed in behavioural economics Iíd like to point you to the famous work by Kahneman and Tversky in 1979 where it was found that people consistently overweight small probabilities while narrow framing their expected outcomes.

Itís a well studied and empirically verified phenomenon which explains why so many people buy the lottery in the hopes of winning a big jackpot when statistically their chances of striking it big are one in the next thousand generations or so of their family bloodline.

The chances are so infinitesimally small that it is all but irrelevant for the NUS/SMU grad, even if they graduated at the top of their class. Even the Latham partner someone posted elsewhere in the thread did his LLM at Harvard straight after his nus undergrad did he not? And even so, letís be honest, Latham is no Cravath, Sullivan or Wachtell is it?

Far too often people point to these stats and say someone went to CC, why canít I? And these would be highly ambitious undergraduates who have probably graduated at the top of their JCs and feel the world is their oyster. Yet, realise that everyone in law school is thinking exactly as you are, and is equally accomplished to have got in. The one percent of the one percent is a frighteningly small figure that is well in the range of the small probabilities that people overestimate in the study I have cited above.
To add one, a quick search has shown no one on LinkedIn with a NUS or SMU law undergrad at any of the top 3 US firms. MC might be in reach, but Iím afraid that the top of the too US firms are out except for the exceptional few (and again, I do mean exceptional in every sense of the word, graduating in the Top 5% of the class is not exceptional by any stretch, impressive yes but not a cut above(

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  #1704 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:13 AM
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Re: "And even so, letís be honest, Latham is no Cravath, Sullivan or Wachtell is it?"

Same poster as above.

As someone who worked at Sullivan, I can say that Latham is not far behind. Even on home ground (i.e. NY transactional), the vault rankings are quite telling as to LW's rise.

This is not the place to debate this, so i won't comment on this further.
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  #1705 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:46 AM
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To add one, a quick search has shown no one on LinkedIn with a NUS or SMU law undergrad at any of the top 3 US firms. MC might be in reach, but Iím afraid that the top of the too US firms are out except for the exceptional few (and again, I do mean exceptional in every sense of the word, graduating in the Top 5% of the class is not exceptional by any stretch, impressive yes but not a cut above(
s://.rajahtannasia.com/chon.beng.tan

may be an exception (and he has a columbia LLM to boot), but the statement is sort of unfair because those firms don't even have an sg office. for firms that have sg offices, they do hire local grads and and the top 5% of the local grads do definitely have a good chance at those firms.
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  #1706 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:49 AM
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s://.rajahtannasia.com/chon.beng.tan

may be an exception (and he has a columbia LLM to boot), but the statement is sort of unfair because those firms don't even have an sg office. for firms that have sg offices, they do hire local grads and and the top 5% of the local grads do definitely have a good chance at those firms.
should clarify that this refers to lawyers with some PQE and not fresh grads
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  #1707 (permalink)  
Old 13-10-2017, 10:26 AM
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So fresh graduates go where?
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  #1708 (permalink)  
Old 13-10-2017, 10:44 AM
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So fresh graduates go where?
the most desirable places are CC, baker, big 4, and the legal service.
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  #1709 (permalink)  
Old 13-10-2017, 03:37 PM
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the most desirable places are CC, baker, big 4, and the legal service.
Agree.

Though my take is - fresh grads go to any firm willing to take them in.
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  #1710 (permalink)  
Old 14-10-2017, 10:19 PM
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Hi guys, a former Temasek Poly Diploma in Law graduate here. I have many well to do friends who didn't meet the criteria to enter local law schools and went to the UK to study law. Most of them went to low-tiered law schools which eventually got struck out by Minlaw.

I'm just wondering if anyone working in law firms can share how is the legal market now? There was an article by ST reported that some firms are not paying their trainees.
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