The problem that caused this glut is the opening the floodgates too wide for many UK and Australian universities to be recognized. I'm not saying that all UK and Australian universities should be banned, but rather only the excellent universities should be recognized together with the local universities

But when too many universities are recognized, this lead to a glut of graduates which allow some employers to pick and choose, while behaving like a complete asshole

Yeah but the very top graduates from the overseas universities don’t come back to Singapore.
They stay in London and work in the white shoe and magic circle.
They are smart. When they come back to SG many years later these people would have become MC/whiteshoe partners sent from London to manage the Asia outfits.

It’s the mediocre ones that come back.

True that. But there are many mediocre ones who will come back, because only the cream of the crop Singaporeans will get a chance with white shoe and magic circle as they are also competing with the top UK and EU grads.

And these numerous mediocre ones are causing the glut and quite a number of them, I dare say, are really not suited to be lawyers. Some of the UK grads from the delisted uni, the quality is just bad. Can't even do a decent research, all just got by because of spotting and luck. Spotting doesn't help in real life legal cases, unfortunately

Those who can afford to do so can always leave the legal industry and start their own business

Also, their parents are rich and influential enough so even the partners will think twice before 'taking revenge'

Actually suspect many firms adopt poor retention practices.
So firms may have 90-100% retention rates.
But after 1-2 years, more than 80-90% of that batch will be gone (made redundant, etc)
What does this show? A better indicator is prospects after 1-2 years rather than pure retention rates. Why? Retention rates can always be skewed. It’s not accurate.

And the trouble is not so much on influx from overseas universities.
Frankly it’s because the firms take into many trainees (hiring 3-4 years in advance) and attrition is slower than the rate at which trainees are qualifying.

That’s why after 1-2 cycles when juniors see what is happening to their seniors, being taught by them, only for the first yearer lawyers to replace the second yearers, tell me, who want to teach anymore? If you teach, you’re accelerating your demise from the law firm.
Worse if it’s an international firm, where the stakes (salary) are indeed much higher.

What are you on about, international firms are where the best teaching happens.

Yup. I've been placed to run files at like my 2nd month in my TC already. Have to get my boss to blessings before sending anything out, but we are expected to do so.

Guess the poster is not talking about recent JLVs or FLAs.
When international is used, it means firm(s) that pays above and beyond big four rates.
The poster is suggesting things that only people within that strata will know.

Which means in sg, either bmwl or cc

a wise friend once told me - if someone is nasty at work, can you imagine how truly horrible they are in their private life?

had a b1tch senior as well. funnily she ended up marrying someone in the same firm. even more funnily the guy is known to be a flirt. jokes on her.

After 30, need to get married.
Wayang. Sham marriages. Same thing.

Just got accepted into bristol
Still waiting for nus to get back to me

So just inquiring is it tough for bristol grads with 2:1/ first to get into big4

You have to wait 3 years later to find out. It might be better as they already cut 8 UK universities in 2015 so the glut will be reduced.

But if I were you, chiong for 1:1 because as a UK grad that is not from Oxbridge, you are already at a disadvantage. That is, unless you have solid backing and connections.

As long as it’s not Oxbridge, really worse off than NUS grads
Unless your parents are so influential that they can compel a firm to give you a TC and a job, frankly unless its Oxbridge, a UK degree doesn’t account for much (especially law)

Agree with your post.

Heard of a guy who graduated from one of the de-listed UK universities in 2016 who is still finding RLT. Didn't help that his resume doesn't have much CCA, leadership roles in organizations and legal internship

Don't listen to all the fearmongers here, plenty of de-listed uni grads with better lives than the NUS grads. No one talks about the people that do well in those unis, get London TCs, enjoy life and then come back to become partners in SG firms.

Obviously even an NUS grad whose "resume doesn't have much CCA, leadership roles in organizations and legal internship" also not going to go far in life.

Yeah but poster does not know the reality.
For every first class from a delisted university who has a decent job, there are another 5 first class out there with a less than ideal job, struggling with prospects.
For your every one London TC, how many others will have to come back to Singapore simply because they can’t get jobs overseas and they don’t have a permanent residence status in UK.
Bear in mind that law today is not the same as law just 15 years ago.
15 years ago, you get a 2:2 from a UK uni, you’re still fine.
Today, you’ll probably be a GC or senior legal counsel.
Graduates today even with a first class do not have a guaranteed career
Sure, one or two will make it out of say 10 first class (from UK), but no one talks about the other 8 who don’t make it and fade into the distance. Same fate even applies to London unis.

I believe that poster was referring to the current situation now. What you mentioned isn't wrong, though I wouldn't say plenty of de-listed uni grads have better lives, but there is a minority who are doing quite well. But that is because they entered the market when it was not so competitive and easier to find TC and be retained. Not to forget, Part A was more bearable last time. I have been hearing rumours that the Company Law Exam in Part A as of now is so difficult that even current corporate law practitioners aren't able to answer in two hours, much less your graduates.

The situation now is quite dire. If you are from a de-listed uni with a 2:1 or 2:2, the odds are highly stacked against you to even obtain training. Some of the big firms are cutting down on trainees and the retaining numbers are decreasing bit by bit. It doesn't help that this current trade war between US and China may hurt Singapore significantly as we rely heavily on global trade.

Even those with 2:1 from the still-listed UK universities like Nottingham, Warwick and Bristol are finding it extremely difficult and I heard from hearsay that even the often-shunned Chinatown firms do receive requests for training even though they have never advertised. Law is no longer milk and honey anymore, rather it has become tougher to survive over the years, hence the high attrition rate.

s://sg.linkedin.com/in/ruhan-lee-10b81ba3

This guy graduated from Bristol in 2015, now chief legal officer leh. What are y’all talking about. He can “devise and draft all types of contracts”. More zai than some partners in big4.

Walao this guy again ah.

How come his career history so dodgy one. The law firm he was in sounds like some indian firm with fake ang moh sounding name. Now this investment management firm also sounds dodgy.

This kind are like the legal sector's equivalent of MLM bros

I don't think local graduates need worry about the glut from overseas graduates because most of the latter are subpar by our standards.

Even the clever few from overseas who do make it into the MC firms may have also secretly acquired British citizenship along the way as the UK allows dual citizenship, so who is to say you can't dob them in to ICA if they do foolishly come back and become competition to our local top dog jobs?

Honestly, you don't have to be the "top" or "clever few" to get a TC from a reputable firm in London. Take a look on LinkedIn. It's really not that difficult to get a London TC if you have a decent 2.1. Even better if you speak a second language fluently. Chinese speakers are quite highly sought after. It may have become tougher in the recent years due to visa quotas.

I had a couple of offers in London but chose to come back for family reasons. Lateraled into MC firm a couple of years later. You will still get there if you plan your moves wisely.

Transactional work is not difficult, you just need a good attitude, ability to work long hours and common sense. Seniors would also prefer someone who's pleasant to work with due to the long hours. Don't get too hung up on the local/overseas uni divide.

Anyone knows what are the salaries like for trainees and assocs at khattarwong? massive thanks

I’m not saying they have better lives because they come back and get TCs at the Big 4 (which in any case is happening now as well) but that they stay to train in London. Alot of them have leveraged their London experience to enter partnership immediately after returning to SG.

What you say re. grades are just as applicable to NUS students. Someone with a 2:2 is going to struggle to find a job, regardless of what uni they come from. In contrast, the people from my batch with 1st class from de-listed unis were all able to find TCs before graduation. Sure not all of them might be at a prestigious firm, but for every Chinatown TC there is one in the Big 4 or in London.

Of course, if a graduate from a delisted uni scores a 2:1, has many internships under his belt and has a good CCA record, he will be chosen over a local uni graduate who scores a 2:2 with no internship under his belt and no CCA record.

But if we take a fair test and compare a delisted uni grad and a local uni grad who both scored 2:2 and have the same resume (no CCA or internship), employers will definitely prefer the local uni grad, unless he has super low EQ and pissed off the interviewers

If a graduate has good academics and good extracurricular, he won't struggle to find a job regardless of which uni he came from. If a graduate has bad grades and did jack **** in uni, he's going to struggle in the future. It really is all about the calibre of the individual at play.

I don't get what the obsession is with trying to prove that NUS is better than overseas unis. If anything, delisted unis place their grads in a far better position by giving them opportunities to go directly to MC/US/SC firms in London.

Thought this is fairly settled

On degree prestige:
Oxbridge > NUS > LSE/UCL > Listed UK > SMU > Delisted UK > Australia

Prestige ain't gonna put food on the table.

Number of NUS grads trained in MC London = 0

Number of delisted uni grads trained in MC London > 0

Ergo delisted uni > NUS

But ego of NUS>> ego of delisted

Latest Guardian ranking
Oxford down to 3rd position
Cambridge is 1st again
So technically Cambridge is better than Oxford
This is important if you are deciding between the two

Does anyone have the 2019's pay info for Big 4 (fresh grad)?

I graduated from 1 of the ivy league law schools, but it is not 1 of the scheduled universities. What are my chances to get an exemption from the minister for law? Hoping to return to SG for my family.

Alamak you all UK grads and local grads should stop arguing who is better. There are more pressing concerns, been hearing rumours that even some big firms are reducing/abolishing TCs or retention

Now it is not the time to compare who is better or not

“Hearing rumours”? Don’t talk **** please

Abolishing TCs seriously?? How will they get fresh blood then? Not to mention cheap labour.

Hey there fellow US law student! Did you go to UPenn or Cornell :p. I'm also at a T14 that's not one of the scheduled universities :(. Would love to hear the answer to your question as well, since I miss my family in Singapore too!

I am not the one you quoted but I believe some firms, in order to cut costs, will choose either:

1) Offer TCs but don't retain

2) No TCs but employ associates straight away


For option 1, it is great for some firms since there is ongoing cheap labour and obedient subordinates. I think, if I am not wrong, a few small law practices are doing this so that they can save money on secretaries, which the boss has to pay more for experience and bonuses.

For option 2, some law firms opt to do this because they had experience of former trainees 'playing them out' by opting not to stay on with the training firm. Usually it happens with bigger law firms, where the trainees whom they pooled resources and effort to train choose not to stay and jump ship. In even more drastic cases, the trainees just wanted to be called to the bar and FO from the legal industry and follow their interests


In any way, this is not really a good sign. And with the ongoing trade war between US and China, who knows what will happen to the economy?

are u from Northwestern?

Yup I'm from NU ;). How did you know?

I think i know who you are. I rem that you said that you cannot live on the SGD5k starting pay at the so called "Big 4" in Singapore.

However, it is always good to be called to the Singapore Bar. Whether we actually want to come back or not is another story.

Well, ivy league universities which are not scheduled also includes Yale. Not just Penn and Cornell.

To be honest, it baffles me, why Yale cannot qualify for Singapore Bar, yet garbage Australian unis can? I understand that Pinky signed a trade pact, but surely not to the extent of accepting garbage?