Graduate Dilemma
 

Hi Guys,

I have a dilemma with regards to what offer I should select. Before I list out my offers, I would like to preface it by saying that I do ultimately see myself coming back to Singapore to work, so doing something that has commercial value in Singapore is important to me.

My background: Economics graduate of top 20 US university (soon to be)

Current offers: Local bank MA (Have not receive contract yet, not sure how much they are playing)

US offers: both are for management consulting

Deloitte Strategy & operations New York Office: 75kUSD base + 10kusd Sign on, not sure about the bonus

EY performance improvement New York office (did a summer internshp here, really like the culture): 72kUSD base + 5k usd sign on, not sure about bonus

I'm not sure how transferable MC skills are to sg, seems like the big 4 don't do pure MC work in SG, besides I'm not really keen on exiting back to enter the big 4 in sg. This is mainly due to prestige and exits, as consulting in big 4 is very selective in the US (base pay is almost the same as IB), and would position me quite well if I decide to go to industry. Would really like some advice.

You do know that MC and local bank MA are two totally different fields, right?

There's also a significant gulf in prestige. Why not try for MBB locally if you are into consulting? It's a highly versatile field so you can enter any other industry you might be interested a couple of years down the road.

Don't be stupid. If he alr got offers in us, why would he wan to try Mbb locally? The oversea exposure would be so much more valuable. And the Asia growth story is over, all the money are flowing back to the west. The prospect is so much brighter at the other side.

My advice: stay in the US and be a MC.

I only see downsides for you to return and little upsides, unless you have specific reasons like family commitments.

Having worked in NYC before, I would recommend you stay on and go with either of the consulting offers. The experience there will do you a lot of good when you are ready to come back in the future.

Yeah. You'll have many more options open to you if you choose MC in US.

my advice: keep the 10kusd, you will need it.

I did most of my MC recruiting in the US. TBH in the US now, the gulf between some of the big 4 firms and MBB have been narrowing for years. There is no difference in compensation (in fact, I think Deloitte is higher) and the exits are equally strong (barring PE/HF, an MBB prestige would be useful).

Unfortunately, I did not do any MC recruiting in sg. I highly doubt I would enter any of the MBB in singapore anyway as I heard that each MBB takes in less than 5. Those that do make it, their CVs are bloody insane.

For me the real fear is how do I transition and sell myself to Singapore recruiters in the future (would I have to take a massive paycut, since in 2-3 years time, I will probably make 3-4 times what a local big 4 MC candidate is getting paid)? Alternatively, I was thinking of exiting into industry before moving back to back to Singapore. Depending on what sector I do get rotated into, I could exit into a fortune 500 and then move back to Singapore at middle management level. What do you guys think, am I looking to far into the future?? I'm driving myself insane atm.

Don't be a f_ucking moron.

What makes you think that the Asia growth story is over? The bulk of consumer good sales are in Asia. There is a lot of potential in the region, plus he seems keen to come back home. Do you think it's so easy to marry a white hot blonde babe, settle well in Manhattan and be a baller? More likely reach a bamboo ceiling in 3-4 years, ESP in MC!

F_ucking Dream on lah, loser. Talk as though you have lived or worked in the US before.

If you're good, you should be able to get decent offers back in Singapore at MNCs. The problem with MC is that it is often seen as nebulous. Plus, like it or not, it is also relationship driven. You need to be able to sell your contacts and expertise in the US.

More importantly, I think the industry you specialize into also matters. A lot of the big and booming industries in the US like pharma, healthcare, high tech etc are run on a very different level and scale in Singapore. So the clients / potential employers are also very different. Bear that in mind, as the change will be extremely drastic.

Exactly, and I have very little control of what sector I do get into in the future (I can influence decision, ultimately I have to be flexible and go wherever partners sell work).

TBH the local bank MA option was only presented to me a while back, I received an email from linkedin from one of the DBS recruiters telling me that they are interested and was willing to fast track my application and voila I received an offer. Honestly, I don't even know what the hell its about. It seems like I'll be doing everything in the bank.

Anyway, Thanks guys, I think I'll probably decide between the two MC offer. That seems to be the general consensus here anyway.

OP, don't second guess the consensus here. Everyone, including me, will tell you one thing. Don't need to force yourself in thinking your alternative option, that is starting working in Singapore now or in 1 or 2 years time, is the better option.

Disclaimer: Graduate from top 10 US school now working in HF in Asia, Hong Kong and Singapore.

Yup, take the MC offer in US. One of my regrets is that I didn't have the work experience in the States. Your 3 years or so there will do you tremendously well going forward and you will not have a problem finding employment back in Asia.

In finance, there's a saying. And at the risk of offending the masses out there, I'll say it. "New York gets the top class. Then London. Asia gets the rejects."

As for me, now I can't because settling down with family. It worked out quite okay if you can convince yourself that you'll dominate the Asian markets, something I try to do so myself. Hehe.

One more important note though. Bear in mind taxes in NY are 40%. Then you got rent and food, both of which will cost you about 20% more than in Asia. This will make your US$72k less attractive. One advice I would tell my younger self is that if you are set on returning back to Singapore, don't plunge! After taxes, rent and food, you won't be left with much. Save it, do away with the fancy restaurants, and in 3 years time you'll have enough for that $250k down payment.

I'll shut up if your bonus for your first year is US$50k. Then again, that is taxed and differently under what they call supplementary income. Check on that.

He isn't doing finance though.

Btw, would accommodation/rent be covered by the firms? I know that many IBs would typically be willing to do that. If that's the case, it would make the decision a lot easier.

You don't have to parrot what some lame Wall Street banker told you. I was fed the same jazz.. But who caused the 2008 crisis? The best? Gimme a break.

I think most bankers really suffer from delusions of grandeur and short term memory.

Turned out this parrot not only listen to lame Wall Street bankers but also got to meet banks in NY, LDN and Asian and made his own conclusion.

I'm Asian and work in Asia myself. It's hard to form an argument that on average, the financiers in Asia beat those in the West. Well, lemme start.

In the investing space, Singapore has Dymon. US has DE Shaw, Citadel, Bridgewater, Rentec. Quantedge had a good run. Last I checked they closed last year in double digits. Only US funds can boast a annualized return of more than 15% or more in the last decade. In quant trading in banks, 90% of the modeling is done in the US and London. And if you sat through interviews for prop trading, you'll know the kind of geniuses straight out of college the US funds will pay a base of $150k to keep them. Hard to find a company in Singapore who'll pay that amount for a fresh graduate.

My point is but just one - on average, US funds and banks have better talent than Asia funds and banks. Hard to argue against that.

That is, double digit loses.

No. None of the firms would cover rent for fresh graduates. It is quite typical in the west to move to a new city to work and then having to rent. I think Singapore is really an anomaly in which most guys/girls in their 20s still live at home (obviously, due to insane housing prices). But in New York/London, it is extremely common for people in their 20s to rent and firms expect you to cover the cost yourself.

Yup, I agree. Which is why I was also advising the OP to take note of the costs. These things build up quickly, more so in Manhattan. Living in NY, don't expect a S$5 or US$3.50 lunch. More like US$8. I heard stories of people renting at the relatively cheaper Long Island and commuting daily.

I did a rough check using s://smartasset.com/taxes/new-york-tax-calculator#OxZDmRxcBh

Let's compare the OP and a normal guy staying with his parents in Singapore.

At US$72k, he'll be taxed 30% leaving him with US$50,400. Per month, that's US$4,200. Rent for a small room can range US$800 to US$1,400. Going with the minimum, his monthly will be US$3,400 less rent, which at current exchange rate, is slightly under S$5,000.

So he's looking at S$5,000 a month post rent and tax. Still respectable for a starting salary.

If I were S&O in NYC, I would rescind your offer immediately.

I think its a pretty no-brainer which one is your best offer. Mind you, this is Deloitte US, not the mickey mouse Deloitte over here and you're comparing it to a local program here - which at best is DBS MA? The progression at Deloitte is going to be so much better for the first few years before you parachute off into grad school (paid for by your company btw).

Besides, you'll be spending most of your weekdays away from NYC that you'll be billing so much frivolous expenses to your client's tab, you'll have no idea what use for your remaining money, apart from splurging it on picking up girls when your partner takes you out.

You bring clients out, it's on their tab ... isn't it the other way? Speaking as someone in the finance sphere, the investors (client) using the bank's services get treated by the banks on the bank's tab.

Err no. I think what he meant was expenses. In consulting, we have a 3-4-5 schedule, which means we are away for 3 nights a week from home city, so while travelling, we have stipulated expense which is quite generous though

yup super generous, according to my friend who worked at PWC MC in Los Angeles.

created an account just for this.

stay in US, don't waste your opportunity. I came back and regretted. Don't worry about the money or rent in NY. Better to spend more on safer environment than to cheap out on those dangerous areas. You won't be spending a lot of time at home so don't bother about it being nice, you just need it to be safe and make sure ur stuff won't get burgled while you're off in other states doing work. You can always earn the money back. Experience is more important. Also, your CV will be nicer(some employees like their candidates to have oversea experiences). I had a close friend who went to LA PWC for MC. I can elaborate more if you need.

Did any of your friends in the States regret staying there and paying the 35% tax very 15% tax in Singapore and Hong Kong?

35% tax versus 15% tax in Singapore and Hong Kong

Like I said, you will easily earn back those tax/rental money in the future. On the grand scheme of things that 15-20% is probably like at most 1-2k difference a month. If you work hard and do well overseas I like to think that it will open more doors for better career opportunities/remuneration. It is ok to give up on money/savings for the first few years of your career if your family don't need you to contribute. When you're young and single, that's the time to take risk and opportunities. When you're married with kids and have good job offer overseas, thats a whole new story. Life isn't always about money. Read this(https://forums.salary.sg/income-jobs/...html#post78609). Western culture and environment is way different than Singaproe.

20-30s = got time and energy but no money.

40s = got money and energy but no time

50s+ = got money and time but energy

Hi,

I was the one that started the thread. Can you elaborate but what your friends think about exits and transitioning back to sg (if he is even considering that option).

I'm not worried bout money atm, it isn't a huge concern. Honestly a total package of USD90-100 is more than enough for any fresh grad. Besides, following my internship last summer, I'll probably expense everything from Monday to Thursday anyway. So my only real outgoing is rent, and entertainment on the weekends.

My main concern is more from a career development perspective than anything.

Create an account and message me with your email or number. Too many condescending keyboard warriors here talking cock. I don't feel revealing too much information about my friends online as well.

Was the person talking about the difference in taxes, which is me, one of the condescending keyboard warriors?

that question was ok.

hahaha i do agree that asia as well as APAC on a whole, is gonna shine in time to come. Markets in APAC is growing very quickly, may wanna consider this fact!

come back to beautiful singapore. dbs is one of the world's top bank. and lee hsien loong is giving us 500 sgd credits for skills future leh!

do you seriously want to be looked down upon daily? or deal with questions such as 'why do you speak english' or 'which part of china is that'?

come home and join the military or civil service. make singapore strong! geylang lorong 18 durians is still the best!!!

who talking cock? here all friendly one mah, who warrier?

at first i thought u were asking a serious question on advice on what to do with your career, then i see more and more nonsense about what a stud you are. now become just incoherent rambling on nothing. seriously go see a shrink, you have serious mental issues.

Lol.. So true.. How a career advice thread on working in MC in NY/London has turn into such rubbish. hahahahaha