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devotedteacher 01-03-2012 04:41 PM

Career as Teacher
 
Currently a teacher undergoing training in NIE. Was a mid career switch.

What is the career prospect? Am thinking of doing a master or PHD to aid my career. Any thoughts?

miwashi 01-03-2012 04:48 PM

Teaching is considered a professional field. It has prospects but is very demanding and they expect you to be perfect. Sort of like, teacher must be perfect role model and cannot go to club, teacher cannot smoke, teacher cannot have sex, etc.

I'm exaggerating, of course.

If you're planning to do a phd you can probably end up as a principal very fast. But then it becomes admin rather than teaching. Of course, as a teacher nowadays it's still more admin than teaching too. You've got to juggle all the involvement in all kinds of committees and actual teaching.

There was this joke a friend told me last time.. it was something like, "so this school has best volleyball team, best this, best that, has Singapore Quality Class certification, and produced the top O level scorer. But do they still educate children about what living life is about?"

Unregistered 02-03-2012 11:23 AM

The renumeration not bad......even if u kenna stuck...your pay will hit 7K. plus some form of gratuity. 5 yrs - 10k, 10 yrs -15K 15 yrs - 20K.....

miwashi 02-03-2012 01:06 PM

That is true.. a lot of my peers same age or younger than me are getting something like 6 k after teaching 5 years. Their pay scale seems above average. They also have this thing called professional development time where they can take some time off every year to go for professional level courses.

Unregistered 02-03-2012 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 21662)
That is true.. a lot of my peers same age or younger than me are getting something like 6 k after teaching 5 years. Their pay scale seems above average. They also have this thing called professional development time where they can take some time off every year to go for professional level courses.

Then what are you waiting for?? Why are you still cutting grass??!!!

miwashi 02-03-2012 05:00 PM

didn't get in
and i want to be able to have sex and live an unholy life

Unregistered 02-03-2012 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 21655)
The renumeration not bad......even if u kenna stuck...your pay will hit 7K. plus some form of gratuity. 5 yrs - 10k, 10 yrs -15K 15 yrs - 20K.....

Are you sure teachers can make 20k? Even principals don't make that much.

Unregistered 02-03-2012 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 21691)
Are you sure teachers can make 20k? Even principals don't make that much.

He is talking about gratuity lah.

Unregistered 02-03-2012 05:13 PM

Teachers need to uphold a certain image, very cham one. Cannot smoke, tatoos or go casino without the fear of bumping into someone they know.

Unregistered 03-03-2012 02:38 AM

a lot of modern teachers today not exactly the holiest saints around lor.
I once brought back a jc teacher i met at a club and she's those super chiong every week kind and worships angmo (SPG!). I also know of another lady who was the 3rd party in an engaged couple and they did all sorts of unwholesome stuff in the staff room toilet. all 3 of them are/were teachers. Dunno what happened after that or now.

But what i notice is that although their actions might be a bit unhealthy but what you notice is that they have the passion for their kids and that teacher 'fire' in them that they have when you talk to them.

miwashi 03-03-2012 11:26 AM

Yes, I'm all for the school of thought that feels that passion for teaching and making an impact that can change kids lives overwhelms other things, but in Singapore the powers that be feel otherwise. I think singapore's cultural development would advance very rapidly if they would see beyond this facade and really start recruiting all those with the passion to do this, regardless of what they do in their own personal time.

Unregistered 27-03-2012 04:30 PM

I want to be a teacher
 
Hi, I am from IT banking sector, and only have S$6k after 13 years of work.
I got Masters in IT from NUS and I do not smoke, do not club, do not curse, very clean.
I am a mother and I would like to share my work experience in class.

Anybody know when the next MOE recruitment talk will be?
I look forward to a respected life as a English/Maths teacher.
I know it is hard work, but for the hardwork, I believe I make a difference to
Singapore. Because deep down, I still love my country.

Can I get $4.7 after NIE?

In Banking sector, you only get outsourced for your hardwork. haha.

Unregistered 27-03-2012 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 22931)
I look forward to a respected life as a English/Maths teacher.
I know it is hard work, but for the hardwork, I believe I make a difference to
Singapore. Because deep down, I still love my country.

Erm... respected? Good luck dealing with students, parents and old bird teachers who will give you plent of "respect".

Join teaching only if you truly love teaching, do not join with some pie in the sky idea just because you are are sick of entertaining your boss, colleagues or pacifying your customers. It ain't any better on the teaching side.

Unregistered 27-03-2012 05:10 PM

can get 6k after 5 years? that is alot...Any teachers to verify




Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 21662)
That is true.. a lot of my peers same age or younger than me are getting something like 6 k after teaching 5 years. Their pay scale seems above average. They also have this thing called professional development time where they can take some time off every year to go for professional level courses.


Unregistered 27-03-2012 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 22933)
Erm... respected? Good luck dealing with students, parents and old bird teachers who will give you plent of "respect".

Join teaching only if you truly love teaching, do not join with some pie in the sky idea just because you are are sick of entertaining your boss, colleagues or pacifying your customers. It ain't any better on the teaching side.

Then how do I convince others that I want to be a teacher?
Can I just say: "I love teaching, and yes, I know it is the worst jobs in the world but I still love it?" Please advise. I sincerely want to know.

Unregistered 27-03-2012 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 22940)
Then how do I convince others that I want to be a teacher?
Can I just say: "I love teaching, and yes, I know it is the worst jobs in the world but I still love it?" Please advise. I sincerely want to know.

Just go ahead and apply. What I know is they are looking out for people who are thinking of a mid-career switch.

Unregistered 27-03-2012 11:14 PM

Sure or not? 6k after 5 years is quite a hefty sum. I thought only military personnel hit that kind of payscale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 22936)
can get 6k after 5 years? that is alot...Any teachers to verify


Advisor 28-03-2012 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 22974)
Sure or not? 6k after 5 years is quite a hefty sum. I thought only military personnel hit that kind of payscale.

I joined teaching as mid career entrant in 2005.That time my pay given was $3548 and a couple of promotions in grade later,in 2010 my pay increased to $6025.Not exactly within 5 years but thereabouts.Anyway,I retired in Dec 2011 having achieved financial freedom from a combination of frugality and hard work plus investments over the years that paid off handsomely.I am currently deriving income from a combination of these investments.But having said that,teaching is perhaps one of the more demanding career in the civil service.Do consider very carefully.

Unregistered 28-03-2012 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 22982)
I joined teaching as mid career entrant in 2005.That time my pay given was $3548 and a couple of promotions in grade later,in 2010 my pay increased to $6025.Not exactly within 5 years but thereabouts.Anyway,I retired in Dec 2011 having achieved financial freedom from a combination of frugality and hard work plus investments over the years that paid off handsomely.I am currently deriving income from a combination of these investments.But having said that,teaching is perhaps one of the more demanding career in the civil service.Do consider very carefully.

Wow. How old are you now?

Advisor 28-03-2012 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 22984)
Wow. How old are you now?

Hi,I am already approaching 39 very soon.I am leading a very balanced life right now.Spending time with family and finding the time to exercise.In addition I have time for personal development i.e. Reading widely on whole range of topics that interest me.But I need to emphasize I live a simple lifestyle.HDB and driving 1.5l japanese car.Therefore I don't need a lot of money.The place I am staying is fully paid and my child's education is provided for sufficiently.Having said that I was pretty sharp and decisive with investments taking bit of risks along with them.But I was proven right most of the time :) That is why I am able to retire from full time fixed salary work before the age of 40.

Unregistered 28-03-2012 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 22985)
Hi,I am already approaching 39 very soon.I am leading a very balanced life right now.Spending time with family and finding the time to exercise.In addition I have time for personal development i.e. Reading widely on whole range of topics that interest me.But I need to emphasize I live a simple lifestyle.HDB and driving 1.5l japanese car.Therefore I don't need a lot of money.The place I am staying is fully paid and my child's education is provided for sufficiently.Having said that I was pretty sharp and decisive with investments taking bit of risks along with them.But I was proven right most of the time :) That is why I am able to retire from full time fixed salary work before the age of 40.

In your opinion, how much net worth and how much investment return on net worth is sufficient to retire at your age?

lazyplane 28-03-2012 05:33 PM

Retire at 40 ? Simple lifestyle ?

Say you live to 80 with $2000 month expenses, that is 960k.
Ok, discount that amount due to time value of money etc etc.

Then consider you said you earn 6500 at age of say 37 (in 2010) ?
If you are male, degree holder , singaporean serving NS, you had 13-15 years working life. And say you saved 4500 per month for that 13 years..
you only get 800+k.

Then u had to pay your hdb flat, and child education etc...

I think you struck rich big via your investment. Definitely not via salary and saving. Most likely bought a 2nd property in 2004 -2007 etc.





Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 22985)
Hi,I am already approaching 39 very soon.I am leading a very balanced life right now.Spending time with family and finding the time to exercise.In addition I have time for personal development i.e. Reading widely on whole range of topics that interest me.But I need to emphasize I live a simple lifestyle.HDB and driving 1.5l japanese car.Therefore I don't need a lot of money.The place I am staying is fully paid and my child's education is provided for sufficiently.Having said that I was pretty sharp and decisive with investments taking bit of risks along with them.But I was proven right most of the time :) That is why I am able to retire from full time fixed salary work before the age of 40.


Unregistered 28-03-2012 08:28 PM

Wow!! Outstanding analysis indeed!! Congratulations.. You are wrong... I
'm guessing he married a rich wife and co-inherited the wealth passed down from generations.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazyplane (Post 23005)
Retire at 40 ? Simple lifestyle ?

Say you live to 80 with $2000 month expenses, that is 960k.
Ok, discount that amount due to time value of money etc etc.

Then consider you said you earn 6500 at age of say 37 (in 2010) ?
If you are male, degree holder , singaporean serving NS, you had 13-15 years working life. And say you saved 4500 per month for that 13 years..
you only get 800+k.

Then u had to pay your hdb flat, and child education etc...

I think you struck rich big via your investment. Definitely not via salary and saving. Most likely bought a 2nd property in 2004 -2007 etc.


Advisor 29-03-2012 07:45 AM

No wonder my friend warned me not to post online for sometimes there may be unkind responses.Just wanted to share my experiences that's all.I guess $3 million should be sufficient to retire from FULL TIME FIXED SALARY WORK at age 40.Returns from investments for my case is btw 5-10% per annum.These include dividends,capital growth and rental incomes.Yeah,guess I built my wealth thru investments over the years certainly not from savings and salary only.I still work albeit on a flexible work arrangement as an education advisor.

But hey this post should be about the teaching career and not investments and financial independence right?

Unregistered 29-03-2012 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 23023)
No wonder my friend warned me not to post online for sometimes there may be unkind responses.Just wanted to share my experiences that's all.I guess $3 million should be sufficient to retire from FULL TIME FIXED SALARY WORK at age 40.Returns from investments for my case is btw 5-10% per annum.These include dividends,capital growth and rental incomes.Yeah,guess I built my wealth thru investments over the years certainly not from savings and salary only.I still work albeit on a flexible work arrangement as an education advisor.

But hey this post should be about the teaching career and not investments and financial independence right?

Hi Advisor, I appreciate all your sharing. Please ignore the unkind responses - it's the nature of internet communication where juveniles and the immature hide behind anonymity and become their alter ego. Perhaps it's due to the pressure of the society (maybe especially so in Singapore). This forum is already quite ok... check out others like channelnewsasia and hardwarezone where remarks can be much worse!

Unregistered 29-03-2012 10:22 AM

Wow!! Really envy the fact that you have achieved financial freedom so early.. Many pple wish to be in your shoes right now... Care to share abit more on what were the investments that helped you accumulate so much wealth in such a short time??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 23023)
No wonder my friend warned me not to post online for sometimes there may be unkind responses.Just wanted to share my experiences that's all.I guess $3 million should be sufficient to retire from FULL TIME FIXED SALARY WORK at age 40.Returns from investments for my case is btw 5-10% per annum.These include dividends,capital growth and rental incomes.Yeah,guess I built my wealth thru investments over the years certainly not from savings and salary only.I still work albeit on a flexible work arrangement as an education advisor.

But hey this post should be about the teaching career and not investments and financial independence right?


Advisor 29-03-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23024)
Hi Advisor, I appreciate all your sharing. Please ignore the unkind responses - it's the nature of internet communication where juveniles and the immature hide behind anonymity and become their alter ego. Perhaps it's due to the pressure of the society (maybe especially so in Singapore). This forum is already quite ok... check out others like channelnewsasia and hardwarezone where remarks can be much worse!

Thanks for your encouragement.Guess I dun really belong here since I dun frequent forums actively.I still got a long way to learn about the art of investing from the gurus.Guess I have made a bit of progress over the last 14 years of my working life.But I look forward to continued progress.My sense is that you will also go on to do very well in life too if u start on the right financial footing.U know many of my peers in secondary school are top biz man,lawyers,doctors and civil servants.So in comparison I really am below them in terms of career and financial achievements.Not many members of the public hold teachers in high regard unfortunately :(

Unregistered 29-03-2012 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 23033)
Thanks for your encouragement.Guess I dun really belong here since I dun frequent forums actively.I still got a long way to learn about the art of investing from the gurus.Guess I have made a bit of progress over the last 14 years of my working life.But I look forward to continued progress.My sense is that you will also go on to do very well in life too if u start on the right financial footing.U know many of my peers in secondary school are top biz man,lawyers,doctors and civil servants.So in comparison I really am below them in terms of career and financial achievements.Not many members of the public hold teachers in high regard unfortunately :(

May I know which school you were from?

Advisor 29-03-2012 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23028)
Wow!! Really envy the fact that you have achieved financial freedom so early.. Many pple wish to be in your shoes right now... Care to share abit more on what were the investments that helped you accumulate so much wealth in such a short time??

U really flatter me.The $3m refers to assets under management currently.My net worth is nowhere near that but I am surviving though on a passive income of $6k per month.There is no secret actually.Properties,blue chips,fixed income and trust funds generate the cash flow for me.Oh for the record no inheritance or parents money for me at all.I had to build from scratch over a long period of time.

Unregistered 29-03-2012 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 23040)
U really flatter me.The $3m refers to assets under management currently.My net worth is nowhere near that but I am surviving though on a passive income of $6k per month.There is no secret actually.Properties,blue chips,fixed income and trust funds generate the cash flow for me.Oh for the record no inheritance or parents money for me at all.I had to build from scratch over a long period of time.

Dun dua pao lah, simi assets under management... Trying to act like IB.

With only 5% - 10% returns act satki, this kind of result is even lower than STI or any uncle auntie who bought property in the past and like that can retire by 40? Numbers dont even add up.

Unregistered 29-03-2012 03:46 PM

This guy is shooting through the mouth w/o thinking. I quickly ran a simulation using our company’s financial planning tool base on the information he provide & some general assumption:

1) Finish degree start work at 24 years old, starting pay 2k (which is very high 16 years ago if he is 40 now)
2) Take home after CPF left 1.6k, so I assume he save 50%, i.e. $800 a month (again very high assumption)
3) He claim his return is 5% - 10%, so I assume on average 7.5%
4) Let’s say he is a high flier with annual increment average 8% a year (very high assumption)
5) No major events that affect his lifestyle like marriage, kids, parents etc., therefore he can save 50% of his pay throughout the entire 16 years working

The result is plain & simple. Even with above average assumption, he will end up with approximately 485k by the time he reach 40 yrs old, it’s a decent sum but nowhere enough to generate a “passive income” of 6k per month or “assets under management” of $3million.

Unregistered 29-03-2012 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23044)
This guy is shooting through the mouth w/o thinking. I quickly ran a simulation using our company’s financial planning tool base on the information he provide & some general assumption:

1) Finish degree start work at 24 years old, starting pay 2k (which is very high 16 years ago if he is 40 now)
2) Take home after CPF left 1.6k, so I assume he save 50%, i.e. $800 a month (again very high assumption)
3) He claim his return is 5% - 10%, so I assume on average 7.5%
4) Let’s say he is a high flier with annual increment average 8% a year (very high assumption)
5) No major events that affect his lifestyle like marriage, kids, parents etc., therefore he can save 50% of his pay throughout the entire 16 years working

The result is plain & simple. Even with above average assumption, he will end up with approximately 485k by the time he reach 40 yrs old, it’s a decent sum but nowhere enough to generate a “passive income” of 6k per month or “assets under management” of $3million.

Of course it is possible. I bought a condo in 2006 for $670K with 20% downpayment (Cash + CPF) and sold it last year for $1.43m and made more than $600K after accounting for interest, stamp duty, renovation cost etc.

Unregistered 29-03-2012 05:29 PM

gyesten Talo-na
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23048)
Of course it is possible. I bought a condo in 2006 for $670K with 20% downpayment (Cash + CPF) and sold it last year for $1.43m and made more than $600K after accounting for interest, stamp duty, renovation cost etc.

Lucky you. Not buying the Quartz that year (2006) was the greatest regret of my life. Thanks to my conservative hubby. :( Else I can retire home with my babies by now.

Unregistered 29-03-2012 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23044)
This guy is shooting through the mouth w/o thinking. I quickly ran a simulation using our company’s financial planning tool base on the information he provide & some general assumption:

1) Finish degree start work at 24 years old, starting pay 2k (which is very high 16 years ago if he is 40 now)
2) Take home after CPF left 1.6k, so I assume he save 50%, i.e. $800 a month (again very high assumption)
3) He claim his return is 5% - 10%, so I assume on average 7.5%
4) Let’s say he is a high flier with annual increment average 8% a year (very high assumption)
5) No major events that affect his lifestyle like marriage, kids, parents etc., therefore he can save 50% of his pay throughout the entire 16 years working

The result is plain & simple. Even with above average assumption, he will end up with approximately 485k by the time he reach 40 yrs old, it’s a decent sum but nowhere enough to generate a “passive income” of 6k per month or “assets under management” of $3million.

Not surprising.

If we look around us there are many late 30s or early 40s PMET friends, relative & colleagues. Quite a number of them save wisely and do not anyhow spend. Most also invest in stocks, unit trust, properties etc, but I haven’t seen anyone like that who can accumulate millions and generate 6k passive income by the age of 40, it just do not work that way.

The only way to short cut the process is either got big inheritance, start a successful business, high flying career or be able to generate returns of 15%-20% per year like the top hedge funds in the world.

Unregistered 29-03-2012 05:54 PM

Aiyoh.. I think the biggest regret for your husband should be marrying a wife like you... only know how to complain and blame him for being prudent to protect the family.. Assuming if he really bought the Quartz in 2006, but somehow property prices crashed... You would also be blaming him i'm sure... Women everyday stay at home will get fat.. better go and work lah..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23049)
Lucky you. Not buying the Quartz that year (2006) was the greatest regret of my life. Thanks to my conservative hubby. :( Else I can retire home with my babies by now.


Unregistered 29-03-2012 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23053)
Aiyoh.. I think the biggest regret for your husband should be marrying a wife like you... only know how to complain and blame him for being prudent to protect the family.. Assuming if he really bought the Quartz in 2006, but somehow property prices crashed... You would also be blaming him i'm sure... Women everyday stay at home will get fat.. better go and work lah..

Yup it's like betting big/small. After the round, those aunties will say aiyah if I had bet that other one, I would have made money.

If investing is so easy, everyone would be rich.

Advisor 29-03-2012 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23051)
Not surprising.

If we look around us there are many late 30s or early 40s PMET friends, relative & colleagues. Quite a number of them save wisely and do not anyhow spend. Most also invest in stocks, unit trust, properties etc, but I haven’t seen anyone like that who can accumulate millions and generate 6k passive income by the age of 40, it just do not work that way.

The only way to short cut the process is either got big inheritance, start a successful business, high flying career or be able to generate returns of 15%-20% per year like the top hedge funds in the world.

Perhaps I am lucky or blessed whatever u call it.I had three breaks of buying properties at the lower end of the cycle and selling them for a profit.These properties are in D9and 11.In addition,I invested into a great Japanese f&b restaurant biz and resold it to a Japanese entity for a handsome profit.Possibly these contributed to my accumulation of assets over the years.I say I am pretty big risk taker and looking back I perhaps may not do now what I did then :)
In addition I said I retired from full time fixed salary job lah not totally retired from work and shake leg.I still need income to sustain myself.

Unregistered 30-03-2012 02:22 AM

You are a champion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 23057)
Perhaps I am lucky or blessed whatever u call it.I had three breaks of buying properties at the lower end of the cycle and selling them for a profit.These properties are in D9and 11.In addition,I invested into a great Japanese f&b restaurant biz and resold it to a Japanese entity for a handsome profit.Possibly these contributed to my accumulation of assets over the years.I say I am pretty big risk taker and looking back I perhaps may not do now what I did then :)
In addition I said I retired from full time fixed salary job lah not totally retired from work and shake leg.I still need income to sustain myself.


Unregistered 30-03-2012 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advisor (Post 23057)
Perhaps I am lucky or blessed whatever u call it.I had three breaks of buying properties at the lower end of the cycle and selling them for a profit.These properties are in D9and 11.In addition,I invested into a great Japanese f&b restaurant biz and resold it to a Japanese entity for a handsome profit.Possibly these contributed to my accumulation of assets over the years.I say I am pretty big risk taker and looking back I perhaps may not do now what I did then :)
In addition I said I retired from full time fixed salary job lah not totally retired from work and shake leg.I still need income to sustain myself.

So now the story of your wealth change from returns of 5% - 10% & prudent savings to you were "lucky or blessed" and manage to make big profits from properties and a restaurant?

You claimed earlier in a nonchalant way that "There is no secret actually.Properties,blue chips,fixed income and trust funds generate the cash flow for me." Now the story appears to be that you took a big gamble and leveraged aggressively during a downturn and also dabbled in some form of entreprunership / angel capital.

Even if that's the case why mislead others into thinking that somehow by saving wisely and investing prudently one can retire with 6k passive income and millions of assets by 40? It is obvious that the bulk of your wealth comes from heavily leveraged property speculation & entreprunership / angel capital, it has little to do with blue chips, fixed income or trust funds like you claimed earlier.

Unregistered 30-03-2012 02:36 PM

At the end of the day we all have to be realistic. I have seen this nonsense spouted by many people about how all you need to get rich & retire early is to get a stable job, save and invest wisely.

The fact of the matter is that in order to retire early comfortably and hit millionaire status outside of the home you stay in requires special actions like inheritance, start own business, very high paying job, some high risk speculation or top notch consistent investment returns. Doing things the normal way will result in a normal outcome, basically enough money for a decent retirement at age 62.

I ran a few different scenarios in our financial calculator on some typical Singapore family scenarios and it proofs the above thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 23083)
So now the story of your wealth change from returns of 5% - 10% & prudent savings to you were "lucky or blessed" and manage to make big profits from properties and a restaurant?

You claimed earlier in a nonchalant way that "There is no secret actually.Properties,blue chips,fixed income and trust funds generate the cash flow for me." Now the story appears to be that you took a big gamble and leveraged aggressively during a downturn and also dabbled in some form of entreprunership / angel capital.

Even if that's the case why mislead others into thinking that somehow by saving wisely and investing prudently one can retire with 6k passive income and millions of assets by 40? It is obvious that the bulk of your wealth comes from heavily leveraged property speculation & entreprunership / angel capital, it has little to do with blue chips, fixed income or trust funds like you claimed earlier.



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