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Unregistered 19-01-2022 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 196944)
What I’m asking is what’s a real life example of a HOD with a larger portfolio. I’ve personally never seen a HOD promoted into SEO3. My personal suspicion is that allowing HODs to be SEO3 is MOE’s way to allow VPs to ‘step-down’/‘get reemployed’ without getting a pay cut.
Oh they do exist. Seen one with my own 2 eyes.

Unregistered 19-01-2022 09:40 PM
Does getting MSEA or Caring Teacher Awards help in promotion? Or nominated for Presidential Teacher Award will help in anything? And will HQ know about it after being nominated for a few times?

Unregistered 20-01-2022 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198462)
Does getting MSEA or Caring Teacher Awards help in promotion? Or nominated for Presidential Teacher Award will help in anything? And will HQ know about it after being nominated for a few times?
doesn't matter if SLs don't like you. i got nominated for both but got C-

Unregistered 20-01-2022 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198560)
doesn't matter if SLs don't like you. i got nominated for both but got C-
get c minus is almost GG already.

Unregistered 20-01-2022 08:30 PM
Would anyone mind sharing the joys and challenges of being an AYH / YH? Thank you in advance :)

Unregistered 20-01-2022 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198375)
Anyone knows if there a minimum sub-grade you need to attain before you have opportunity to be considered for VP-ship?
Haha, the "hard limit" is GEO4, but the realistic lowest point is ~SEO1 because you must have been a confirmed HOD/YH/SSD, or Senior Officer/Asst Director, and performed well enough for at least a few years to be centrally identified by HR for VP-ship.

By the time this happens, an officer will more than likely be already SEO1 or 2.

Unregistered 20-01-2022 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198617)
Would anyone mind sharing the joys and challenges of being an AYH / YH? Thank you in advance :)
In most school, AYH/YH will also be part of the discipline/case management team. Meaning to say, teachers will come to you when they encounter issues managing students’ behaviour or communicating with parents. Day to day basis, you ensure that the level runs. Attendance monitoring, administrative work such as giving out whatever materials everyone dumps to you, meet the parents, briefing etc. you are basically the middleman for info dissemination.

Beyond that, you do need to support students with learning needs, look into programmes to address trends, build capacity of teachers etc.

Joy- if you enjoy working with students and leveling up staff
Challenges- sai gang and learning to say NO

Unregistered 20-01-2022 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 197979)
Thanks for the insight. I'm a current HOD in a primary school, and cannot agree more with what has been mentioned here. I know of outstanding HODs who remain as HODs and never got the chance to attend Vp Interview. Out of my cohort of NIE mates, only one of us is a current Vp appointed at 36 years old. And you guessed it right - he is an overseas scholar. I know of another who from a position of secondary school HOD was appointed as a JC Vice-Principal - also a scholar on the FLP programme. Just look at the linked-in profiles of many P and Vp - almost 80% are scholars.

This is my 13th year in service and at age 39, I know that I have reached the highest appointment I can possibly hold due to my non-scholar status. Truth be told, I have learnt to slow down and take things easy, do a honest day's work, don't short change the students and don't mess up. As HOD, admin work never ends. Much time is spent and wasted at management meetings, energies spent dealing with over anxious parents , weeknights and weekends on marking, ranking and appraisal, exam setting and a host of other duties. After some time, the 'passion' inevitably will fizzle out.

And for the GEO officers who are thinking that the renumeration of a SEO1 officer is good - let me share that on my year of being bumped into seo1 from GEO5, the jump was not more than $250 (excluding the typical merit increment). Although we do not come into the service for purely monetary gains, I would anticipate that MOE would accord better recognition for a milestone promotion such as this.

Fortunately, I have been thrifty in my years of working, and am considering leaving the service in a few years time to take on part time teaching/tutoring for a more well-balanced work life harmony.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I can totally resonate with your sharing.

I would consider myself to be doing well, Perf grades of As and Bs, appointed HOD early 30s, but the fact that I am not a scholar halted all progress possible. When I spoke about my aspiration with the SLs, they seemed clueless about how they could support me in my development. This is where I felt let down by the system and them, as farmers generally do not reap what they showed, unless one is contented with good perf grades and stagnant progression.

At the age of 40, I have no answers or anyone telling me that I am no longer in the rat race for VP-ship, or should I say that I was never in the race. It is this mentality and the need to portray themselves as the kind and supportive leaders that makes things unclear. I would rather be told upfront that I should not harbour naive thoughts than to slog day and night only to realised that I have thrown my youth away. Many would argue that one join the profession to teach, and the passion should keep him/her going. That is if you are not ambitious, and you feel enough being a good teacher.

With the HODs not going up, I feel sad for newer teachers who work hard and aspire to make advancements in the career. How many jaded HoDs will be willing to forgo the appointment/seo rank and step down from their position?

Unregistered 21-01-2022 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198634)
Thank you for sharing your experience. I can totally resonate with your sharing.

I would consider myself to be doing well, Perf grades of As and Bs, appointed HOD early 30s, but the fact that I am not a scholar halted all progress possible. When I spoke about my aspiration with the SLs, they seemed clueless about how they could support me in my development. This is where I felt let down by the system and them, as farmers generally do not reap what they showed, unless one is contented with good perf grades and stagnant progression.

At the age of 40, I have no answers or anyone telling me that I am no longer in the rat race for VP-ship, or should I say that I was never in the race. It is this mentality and the need to portray themselves as the kind and supportive leaders that makes things unclear. I would rather be told upfront that I should not harbour naive thoughts than to slog day and night only to realised that I have thrown my youth away. Many would argue that one join the profession to teach, and the passion should keep him/her going. That is if you are not ambitious, and you feel enough being a good teacher.

With the HODs not going up, I feel sad for newer teachers who work hard and aspire to make advancements in the career. How many jaded HoDs will be willing to forgo the appointment/seo rank and step down from their position?
Yes, it is quite a sad reality for the average teacher who desires satisfying progression. The structure of our system inherently creates huge bottlenecks due to the large teacher:manager ratio at almost all levels.

Unfortunately there are almost no clear structures/provisions for non-scholars to rise above HOD. Those few who manage to do it are always "centrally identified by HR", but the processes underlying this central management of advancement are so opaque that even your school leaders may not have a very solid idea of what happens, and regardless they are explicitly not at liberty to discuss these with you.

Unregistered 21-01-2022 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198634)
Thank you for sharing your experience. I can totally resonate with your sharing.

I would consider myself to be doing well, Perf grades of As and Bs, appointed HOD early 30s, but the fact that I am not a scholar halted all progress possible. When I spoke about my aspiration with the SLs, they seemed clueless about how they could support me in my development. This is where I felt let down by the system and them, as farmers generally do not reap what they showed, unless one is contented with good perf grades and stagnant progression.

At the age of 40, I have no answers or anyone telling me that I am no longer in the rat race for VP-ship, or should I say that I was never in the race. It is this mentality and the need to portray themselves as the kind and supportive leaders that makes things unclear. I would rather be told upfront that I should not harbour naive thoughts than to slog day and night only to realised that I have thrown my youth away. Many would argue that one join the profession to teach, and the passion should keep him/her going. That is if you are not ambitious, and you feel enough being a good teacher.

With the HODs not going up, I feel sad for newer teachers who work hard and aspire to make advancements in the career. How many jaded HoDs will be willing to forgo the appointment/seo rank and step down from their position?
I agree with you totally. It's really a huge bottleneck. And I highly doubt HR is regulating the situation well at all. It's really not making the education service very 'attractive' in terms of growing young officers and allowing them to have progression in their career.

And I don't believe every scholar is that 'fantastic'. I've seen some really shitty ones who can't do their roles well but are just there because of the scholar status.

Unregistered 21-01-2022 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198634)
Thank you for sharing your experience. I can totally resonate with your sharing.

I would consider myself to be doing well, Perf grades of As and Bs, appointed HOD early 30s, but the fact that I am not a scholar halted all progress possible. When I spoke about my aspiration with the SLs, they seemed clueless about how they could support me in my development. This is where I felt let down by the system and them, as farmers generally do not reap what they showed, unless one is contented with good perf grades and stagnant progression.

At the age of 40, I have no answers or anyone telling me that I am no longer in the rat race for VP-ship, or should I say that I was never in the race. It is this mentality and the need to portray themselves as the kind and supportive leaders that makes things unclear. I would rather be told upfront that I should not harbour naive thoughts than to slog day and night only to realised that I have thrown my youth away. Many would argue that one join the profession to teach, and the passion should keep him/her going. That is if you are not ambitious, and you feel enough being a good teacher.

With the HODs not going up, I feel sad for newer teachers who work hard and aspire to make advancements in the career. How many jaded HoDs will be willing to forgo the appointment/seo rank and step down from their position?
Really agree with you. The service is so stuck, so young officers with aspirations have no leadership positions to grow into, and the same goes to HODs who are really good but nowhere to move up into and stuck until retirement.

HR seems to be only focused on scholars. Honestly, have seen some who are crappy, but at VP levels only coz they have scholar status.

Unregistered 21-01-2022 07:32 PM
Agree with what many of you have mentioned, abt the bottlenecks, abt how non scholars don’t really have opportunities, and many young folks have little chances to progress and have their aspirations fulfilled.
Coupled with how HR is so ‘unfair’ or unclear in practices- only grooming scholars but neglecting the very deserving HODs. Some scholar VPs I’ve seen have poor attitude, lack empathy and really lack substance, yet they are in the positions only because of their status.
What happened to meritocracy?!

Unregistered 22-01-2022 12:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198752)
Agree with what many of you have mentioned, abt the bottlenecks, abt how non scholars don’t really have opportunities, and many young folks have little chances to progress and have their aspirations fulfilled.
Coupled with how HR is so ‘unfair’ or unclear in practices- only grooming scholars but neglecting the very deserving HODs. Some scholar VPs I’ve seen have poor attitude, lack empathy and really lack substance, yet they are in the positions only because of their status.
What happened to meritocracy?!
anecdotal experience

Unregistered 22-01-2022 10:34 AM
For seniors in ranking panel, how do you guys make a decision on whether to raise an officer's CEP? Just curious about the kind of discussions that take place when determining an officer's future

Unregistered 22-01-2022 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198825)
For seniors in ranking panel, how do you guys make a decision on whether to raise an officer's CEP? Just curious about the kind of discussions that take place when determining an officer's future
frankly raising cep is easier if the higher up bosses and peer bosses know the candidate well and this is what usually happens. if the candidate is always working under his own boss, unlikely easy to justify cep raise as there is no one else to back the justification

Unregistered 22-01-2022 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198825)
For seniors in ranking panel, how do you guys make a decision on whether to raise an officer's CEP? Just curious about the kind of discussions that take place when determining an officer's future
The most common reason (anecdotally) is when most or all of the panel feels that the officer in question has been able to handle a significant stretch in their jobscope.. stretches into the area(s) that are relevant to their desired career track, while still maintaining standards in their bread and butter work (T&L and Student Devt).

Granted it is quite subjective, and it's quite dependent on whether the work is visible enough to everyone on the panel. Being 'strategically deployed' across different committees headed by different KPs is one way to increase visibility. But this also means.. a lot of committees lor.

Work life balance 22-01-2022 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 196415)
Getting promoted from GEO3 to 4 will come after 3-4 years if you do okay. The difficult part is moving from GEO4 to GEO5. Don’t know how many years will it take.
Until today I’ve no idea why my promotion was so fast.
2008 August contract
2009 NIE
2010 GEO2 (back then it was GEO1.1 I believe)
2011 GEO3 (GEO1A1 back then)
2012 GEO4 (GEO1A2 back then)
2014 GEO5
2019 SEO1

Unregistered 22-01-2022 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Work life balance (Post 198954)
Until today I’ve no idea why my promotion was so fast.
2008 August contract
2009 NIE
2010 GEO2 (back then it was GEO1.1 I believe)
2011 GEO3 (GEO1A1 back then)
2012 GEO4 (GEO1A2 back then)
2014 GEO5
2019 SEO1
someppl get longer end of the stick some get shorter end so thats life

Unregistered 22-01-2022 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Work life balance (Post 198954)
Until today I’ve no idea why my promotion was so fast.
2008 August contract
2009 NIE
2010 GEO2 (back then it was GEO1.1 I believe)
2011 GEO3 (GEO1A1 back then)
2012 GEO4 (GEO1A2 back then)
2014 GEO5
2019 SEO1
perhaps promotion rate was faster before 2019?

nowadays, you don't see 7 promotees in the same subgrade

Unregistered 22-01-2022 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198959)
perhaps promotion rate was faster before 2019?

nowadays, you don't see 7 promotees in the same subgrade
Nowadays it's more like 7 EO promotees in total.

Unregistered 23-01-2022 02:40 PM
Guess it varies for schools.
Last year, my school had more than 5 SE01 promotees and close to 5 SEO2 promotees. Plus around 5 each for GEO5. Plus other grades.

Then again, it has been some time we had close to 20 promotees . If previous years are very few, perhaps the next or year after will have more. It’s after all dependent on the officers and not the school.

Unregistered 24-01-2022 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199042)
Guess it varies for schools.
Last year, my school had more than 5 SE01 promotees and close to 5 SEO2 promotees. Plus around 5 each for GEO5. Plus other grades.

Then again, it has been some time we had close to 20 promotees . If previous years are very few, perhaps the next or year after will have more. It’s after all dependent on the officers and not the school.
in general teaching profession is a slow grind because its not a corporate kind of ladder

Unregistered 24-01-2022 05:32 AM
So slow that MOE is losing young talent to other ministries in civil service, with higher remuneration and better prospects.

Unregistered 24-01-2022 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199206)
in general teaching profession is a slow grind because its not a corporate kind of ladder
Even then, there is a world of difference between the present, and pre-2015 (or pre-2010). The fact that there are first-career GEO3 officers in their mid-30s already makes the problem plain for all to see. GEO3 salary caps out at 5.6k, and we all know how GEO3 through 5 are essentially the same job in nearly all schools, once the officer is out of BT-ship.

Unregistered 24-01-2022 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199236)
Even then, there is a world of difference between the present, and pre-2015 (or pre-2010). The fact that there are first-career GEO3 officers in their mid-30s already makes the problem plain for all to see. GEO3 salary caps out at 5.6k, and we all know how GEO3 through 5 are essentially the same job in nearly all schools, once the officer is out of BT-ship.
yeah geo3-5 essentially the same job .

Unregistered 24-01-2022 10:29 AM
Why first career Geo 3 will be in mid 30s?

Ns21
Degree25
Nie 27-28
By 35 should be a geo 4
By 42 geo 5

Don’t think a lot of geo 3 at age 35

Unregistered 24-01-2022 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199249)
Why first career Geo 3 will be in mid 30s?

Ns21
Degree25
Nie 27-28
By 35 should be a geo 4
By 42 geo 5

Don’t think a lot of geo 3 at age 35
You don't think, but there are.

That's why we say there is a problem. There exist GEO3s which are 33, 34, 35 y/o. Stuck at the same grade for upwards of 7 years. We are equally puzzled as to why this is allowed to happen. Anyone from HR can enlighten?

Unregistered 24-01-2022 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199257)
You don't think, but there are.

That's why we say there is a problem. There exist GEO3s which are 33, 34, 35 y/o. Stuck at the same grade for upwards of 7 years. We are equally puzzled as to why this is allowed to happen. Anyone from HR can enlighten?
cep too low. probably max geo5

Unregistered 24-01-2022 03:50 PM
Do secondary school teachers have enough sleep/rest?
Other than lesson prep, there are other committee work and CCA.

What time you guys end work and rest?

Unregistered 24-01-2022 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199310)
Do secondary school teachers have enough sleep/rest?
Other than lesson prep, there are other committee work and CCA.

What time you guys end work and rest?
eat and sleep school work only. no life already. even off days are marking papers

Unregistered 24-01-2022 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199310)
Do secondary school teachers have enough sleep/rest?
Other than lesson prep, there are other committee work and CCA.

What time you guys end work and rest?
1. Be resourceful. Balance your own workload. For example, work with others for lesson prep AND there are many resources out there to help you with lesson prep. Don’t start building it from scratch. Innovate. What can you do with little time but maximum output? Do you need to mark every single piece of work in order for your student to achieve good results?

2. Prioritise. What do you need to clear first? Which piece of work has the most impact? Can you delegate some pieces of work out? Not everything needs to be done by yourself. Eg. For CCA, can your students do the planning of weekly programmes and you monitor for safety/budget?

If you do not help yourself, there is very little that the system can help you. Many seasoned teachers do leave sch before 5pm (some days might be even earlier) and only have to chase marking deadlines during peak periods like exam period. Other than that, it is all about being resourceful and prioritising.

Unregistered 25-01-2022 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 198617)
Would anyone mind sharing the joys and challenges of being an AYH / YH? Thank you in advance :)
YH is quite a silly post though. Maybe 5-6 years ago, not common at all, and it was at most an unofficial internal appointment and called "level coordinator".. Must be too many teachers hence need to create such jlb posts.

Unregistered 25-01-2022 05:29 AM
AYH looks at a particular level eg just Sec 1 level matters, while YH is a HOD post looking at a few levels eg lower sec collectively, or upper sec collectively.

It’s a lot about taking care of various student matters eg attendance, student well-being, peer relationship issues, working closely with counsellors on cases, engaging parents etc. Need to work with multiple KPs on student matters and programmes, eg with HOD CCE on events such as national day, academic KPs for the release of national exam results etc.

Scope very very big. Basically almost every student matter is part of YH role

Unregistered 25-01-2022 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199422)
AYH looks at a particular level eg just Sec 1 level matters, while YH is a HOD post looking at a few levels eg lower sec collectively, or upper sec collectively.

It’s a lot about taking care of various student matters eg attendance, student well-being, peer relationship issues, working closely with counsellors on cases, engaging parents etc. Need to work with multiple KPs on student matters and programmes, eg with HOD CCE on events such as national day, academic KPs for the release of national exam results etc.

Scope very very big. Basically almost every student matter is part of YH role
the people aspect of teaching is one of the toughest part. many teachers fail to see this when they join thinking that if one puts in all effort on teaching the curriculum, they will succeed

by people aspect, i refer to pupils, parents, fellow colleagues and bosses

Unregistered 25-01-2022 01:33 PM
Thank you to those who shared your insights regarding the AYH / YH post. I’m currently preparing to take on such an appointment and your inputs are valuable.

Unregistered 25-01-2022 10:01 PM
Anybody has applied for PGS and successful in getting it (ie shortlisted for interview, managed to go through interview and secure scholarship)?

Is CEP a huge factor in terms of being shortlisted in the first place?

CWP 26-01-2022 02:05 PM
Hi all, can I ask if there is a lead time to 'throw letter'? need to give x number of months in advance notice?

Unregistered 26-01-2022 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWP (Post 199678)
Hi all, can I ask if there is a lead time to 'throw letter'? need to give x number of months in advance notice?
no no such thing

Unregistered 26-01-2022 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199398)
1. Be resourceful. Balance your own workload. For example, work with others for lesson prep AND there are many resources out there to help you with lesson prep. Don’t start building it from scratch. Innovate. What can you do with little time but maximum output? Do you need to mark every single piece of work in order for your student to achieve good results?

2. Prioritise. What do you need to clear first? Which piece of work has the most impact? Can you delegate some pieces of work out? Not everything needs to be done by yourself. Eg. For CCA, can your students do the planning of weekly programmes and you monitor for safety/budget?

If you do not help yourself, there is very little that the system can help you. Many seasoned teachers do leave sch before 5pm (some days might be even earlier) and only have to chase marking deadlines during peak periods like exam period. Other than that, it is all about being resourceful and prioritising.
T&L aside, there are many workshops, programmes and committee work arrowed downwards to the younger officers. FT duties as well. Or some misc random KPI some SLs or KPs are demanding for periodically. Even with proper planning, many teachers end up with "no life" like what a previous poster mentioned.

And since we're discussing about this...Is there an unspoken advantage old/elderly teachers or KPs have? They are always assigned the more well behaved or higher ability classes, while the lower ability and challenging classes are assigned to the GEO 2s and 3s. They are also more successful in rejecting and pushing the workload to the younger officers.

For e.g. "I cannot take 5 classes this year because I have a family to take care of" or "I'm not good at ICT, it's better for the young teachers to handle this". And the HOD conveniently shifts this workload to the younger teachers since "they are not married/do not have kids/are supposed to be more energetic/are better at ICT".

Unregistered 27-01-2022 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 199410)
YH is quite a silly post though. Maybe 5-6 years ago, not common at all, and it was at most an unofficial internal appointment and called "level coordinator".. Must be too many teachers hence need to create such jlb posts.
Wah how long have you been away from school to think YHs are jlb? The positions were carved out to offload VPs and SD/student management heads, and provide another layer with management authority to support Form Teachers with challenging matters dealing with students.

Jlb my ass.. they go home the latest among all of us in the HOD room.


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