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Q: Big4 - Yearly salary increment

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  #20521 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 07:54 PM
EDMWer
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But NS is good training for adapting to audit

There are many similarities

For one, my audit office got double decker bunkbed for stay in
Today, i have installed 3 pin power socket outlet next to the audit double decker bunkbed for laptop electricity

On the ceiling is a ceiling mounted dual screen monitor to ensure productivity

Now we can ensure 24/7 audit productivity for our clients who likes to keep calling us after midnight

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  #20522 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 07:57 PM
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How come all dun want to stay more than 3 years?
More cost than benefits for staying more than 3 yrs

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  #20523 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 08:32 PM
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More cost than benefits for staying more than 3 yrs
Outside audit got future meh?
3 years outside audit got future meh?

Please intro me job and company
this industry totally no future, u cant find competent staff in MNC or SME.
The competent ones get overloaded outside of audit as well
Not to mention the culture of commercial aunties, incompetent FMs all the way to CFO
when i was big 4 auditor, I was scared of directors. Now i work directly for directors, I think they are below me. and they need me more than i need them.

Stay in audit bro. Life outside is worst.

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  #20524 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 10:23 PM
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Anyone feel that audit really attract ppl of the same looks especially sinkies? Nerdy, awkward and quite ugly? Jhb some quite chio, but many sinkie ver I see the looks department quite cmi and weird also
Very simple. It is a well known fact that attractive people do better in life and careers. They get better grades, succeed in interviews more, get noticed and promoted faster, and get better pay. You can say that correlation is not causation, but this is a well known observation.

In SG, audit and Big 4 is considered low prestige job. So people that can only make it there seem to be the lower calibre, unattractive ones. Notice how all the high flyer professions like IB, law, consulting, medicine have many attractive and well spoken, well put together people?

However for MYsians, audit is still considered quite prestigious cos their country is so poor it doesn't have many other high flying jobs. So on the whole they have more of the higher calibre attractive ones relative to their countrymen. Those that can work in Big 4 in Singapore lagi even more high flier, since only the "cream of the crop" can leave bolehland to come here. That's why in Big 4, the jhb you see are generally chioer than the sinkie bu you see.

You know where to find chio sinkie bus? They're working in MAP in the Big 3 banks or RMs in private banks. Not audit.
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  #20525 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 10:23 PM
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Saw the comment below on FT on this article "Big Four accounting firms urged to pay junior auditors more" (://t.com/content/f38ff331-18a6-4701-a87f-42561969a9f9)

True? what are your thoughts?

****
A public firm auditor role for a newly minted graduate is one of the worst deals ever. The work is around 75% as stressful as that of a lawyer or a banker or a consultant but the pay is probably around 40% (at best) of these. To make it worse, it's mundane and not highly regarded- even though it should be- relative to their lawyer or banker or consultant peers. The transferrable skills gained post qualification are less than those for these and even post qualification the salary bump is not really substantial and the delta between bankers and consultants and lawyers just grows as the years go by, unless you make Partner. And this is the carrot dangled in front of donkeys which only 5% or so will get to eat- the rest are being deliberately egged on as cheap labour for the enrichment of the partners.

The business model absolutely sucks in Big 4. Graduates in the US cottoned on to this now and there is a huge dearth of them going into public accounting. It's shameful how the public accounting firms reward their staff until and unless they become partner, but if you let them do this then you can't blame them trying to do this. Go and become a banker or consultant.
****
Not wrong but honestly, half the time people here compare to banking as if it is the closest alternative. but the fact is banking is not a 'vanilla' accounting related role. You would be better off not studying accounting if you want to go into banking. The more traditional concept of a job tied to accounting is in the realm of reporting and fp&a for instance. In fact even fp&a is more specially catered to with the data analytics spec. For those who have been looking to exit big4 after the recent pay hikes would notice that for traditional finance roles, the industry has struggled to keep up with the Big4 pay increments and offers only abt 10% or just matching the big4 salary when the exit. This is a far cry from the times of a 20% bump. So whether this is 'cheap labor' is up to debate because that is the market value for such a role.

So are auditors underpaid for the nature of their work? Hard to say. It would be purely unfair to say that they work longer hours, hence they should be paid more. because the value of the function is as such regardless of how much you work.

So bottom line is big4 is competing with entry level finance roles while offering slightly lower pay, but much better progression. Even compared to banking, promotions are not as guaranteed as big4 and this allows big4 people to quickly climb through the ranks and make a lateral exit. Barring the star performers who are able to excel in banking, Big4 remains the most solid path to promotions and eventual exit at a higher level m/sm without having to engage in excessive bootlicking or ass kissing that would be imperative in the commercial/banking context.

Anyone who has been in corporate would know that for cost center functions like finance, promotions comes either when some leaves or when there is a justified increase in scope of work. However, this does not come easy to such functions because of the steady nature of the work.

So there are pros and cons to big4 with the obvious downside of pay and lifestyle, but with the promise of accelerated progression that is well recognized in the industry. People who argue that such a traditional time has passed and that you can start off in the industry just as well needs to do a reality check 5 years down the road to see whether they have hit the promotion bottleneck. Maybe then they will appreciate what big4 is able to offer.

But this is not to defend the fact that Big4 should and have the resources to make life better for junior staff. And the fact that the mass hiring from overseas is a disgrace~

Just my 2 cents
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  #20526 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 10:26 PM
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Not wrong but honestly, half the time people here compare to banking as if it is the closest alternative. but the fact is banking is not a 'vanilla' accounting related role. You would be better off not studying accounting if you want to go into banking. The more traditional concept of a job tied to accounting is in the realm of reporting and fp&a for instance. In fact even fp&a is more specially catered to with the data analytics spec. For those who have been looking to exit big4 after the recent pay hikes would notice that for traditional finance roles, the industry has struggled to keep up with the Big4 pay increments and offers only abt 10% or just matching the big4 salary when the exit. This is a far cry from the times of a 20% bump. So whether this is 'cheap labor' is up to debate because that is the market value for such a role.

So are auditors underpaid for the nature of their work? Hard to say. It would be purely unfair to say that they work longer hours, hence they should be paid more. because the value of the function is as such regardless of how much you work.

So bottom line is big4 is competing with entry level finance roles while offering slightly lower pay, but much better progression. Even compared to banking, promotions are not as guaranteed as big4 and this allows big4 people to quickly climb through the ranks and make a lateral exit. Barring the star performers who are able to excel in banking, Big4 remains the most solid path to promotions and eventual exit at a higher level m/sm without having to engage in excessive bootlicking or ass kissing that would be imperative in the commercial/banking context.

Anyone who has been in corporate would know that for cost center functions like finance, promotions comes either when some leaves or when there is a justified increase in scope of work. However, this does not come easy to such functions because of the steady nature of the work.

So there are pros and cons to big4 with the obvious downside of pay and lifestyle, but with the promise of accelerated progression that is well recognized in the industry. People who argue that such a traditional time has passed and that you can start off in the industry just as well needs to do a reality check 5 years down the road to see whether they have hit the promotion bottleneck. Maybe then they will appreciate what big4 is able to offer.

But this is not to defend the fact that Big4 should and have the resources to make life better for junior staff. And the fact that the mass hiring from overseas is a disgrace~

Just my 2 cents
This is very insightful and actually one of the most well reasoned posts I've read here in years. Are you a Big 4 partner by any chance?

Long and short is, the actual calibre of the graduates and lateral hires that Big 4 routinely hire, aren't actually competitive for other industries like banking or consulting etc. So the apples-to-apples comparison is actually with accounting on the corporate side.

I wonder whether that's peculiar only to the Southeast Asia market especially Singapore? Meaning in London, Sydney, NY, Big 4 actually hires grads who are actually competitive for other industries, and so Big 4 professional services is a genuine alternative career option to banking.

I suppose the whole problem is that Big 4 constantly pitches itself as a competitive alternative career to consulting and banking. But the fact is that this doesn't reflect reality. As we know, the grads who could've made it to MAP in banks or other "high finance", would not have considered Big 4 in the first place (except as a backup option).
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  #20527 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 10:44 PM
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This is very insightful and actually one of the most well reasoned posts I've read here in years. Are you a Big 4 partner by any chance?

Long and short is, the actual calibre of the graduates and lateral hires that Big 4 routinely hire, aren't actually competitive for other industries like banking or consulting etc. So the apples-to-apples comparison is actually with accounting on the corporate side.

I wonder whether that's peculiar only to the Southeast Asia market especially Singapore? Meaning in London, Sydney, NY, Big 4 actually hires grads who are actually competitive for other industries, and so Big 4 professional services is a genuine alternative career option to banking.

I suppose the whole problem is that Big 4 constantly pitches itself as a competitive alternative career to consulting and banking. But the fact is that this doesn't reflect reality. As we know, the grads who could've made it to MAP in banks or other "high finance", would not have considered Big 4 in the first place (except as a backup option).
A large part of why Big4 is regarded as an alternative to consulting/banking is also attributed to the size of their markets there and the level of market activity in their capital markets.

Can auditing an SGX client be equivalent to auditing a NYSE client? Sg office being the component auditor of Apple vs US office auditing Apple Group. The scale, complexity, importance and just overall revenue is completely different. For tier 1 capital markets country like London, NY we can definitely expect the importance of the capital market to buoy the relative prestige and importance of the related roles as well.

Whereas in sg the largest audit clients in sg are either government linked or REITs and property... This makes audit pure scut work that no one actually refers to the FS for anything useful. But in those markets where ppl actually use the FS to make decisions obviously the job function is treated with more respect and importance. That the difference between audit treated as a compliance function versus having predictive value.

~

To all the new comers, industry that you audit or enter is also extremely important. Dont think its all the same. FS audit and non FS audit, and even sectors within non FS audit can all lead to different paths. Think abt it from the perspective (if you intend to stay in sg) which of these sectors can experience meaningful growth in the next 10 years. This will majorly impact your exit opps in the future. Whether u want to exit into tech or financial services etc. All these draw back to how money flows towards industries that are treated with a greater level of importance (capital market activity).
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  #20528 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2024, 11:43 PM
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or maybe it's beyond cringe to keep talking about NS? How old are you guys liao.

you're like one of those awkward guys go uni orientation camp keep yapping loudly nonstop about NS and dominating the convo thinking that its cool and interesting but all the girls v turned off and bored.

meanwhile the guy who's smart enough to keep his mouth shut and only open his mouth to say some witty charming quip managed to bang all the girls in the hall room after the camp.
Right back at you / how old are you liao, still thinking about girls?

Girls is temporarily and stop mattering in adult life.
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  #20529 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2024, 12:12 AM
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Isn’t it more prevalent at KPMG ? You can have M1 as young as 26
Hmmm I’m not too sure about other big 4s but that’s what I observed at EY. Started around 1-2 years back only after the mass resignation of M1-M3s. Airdropped several msians as S3 for a few months and made them managers afterwards.

Working with them was absolute d0gsh1t
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  #20530 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2024, 08:46 AM
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Outside audit got future meh?
3 years outside audit got future meh?

Please intro me job and company
this industry totally no future, u cant find competent staff in MNC or SME.
The competent ones get overloaded outside of audit as well
Not to mention the culture of commercial aunties, incompetent FMs all the way to CFO
when i was big 4 auditor, I was scared of directors. Now i work directly for directors, I think they are below me. and they need me more than i need them.

Stay in audit bro. Life outside is worst.
Yes. Most of the FM to CFO are too incompetent. Maybe stay in commercial too long and slack too long.
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