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  #1551 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 12:24 PM
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What is there to rebut?

It's simple.

BE BETTER!

All he did was give insight on the profile of an above average SMU student. Lets run through every category he mentioned:

"Desire for a Job:"
If local university students start finding jobs at the start of their final year, private university students can always start searching for jobs earlier. Start on day 1.

Idk about NUS/NTU/SUTD but most SMU students take the internship at the end of year 3 very seriously, as if they are applying for a real job because they hope to convert that internship into a full-time job. This means that they are already finding their graduation job before they even apply for their end of year 3 internship, which is typically year 3 sem 1. Yup, so the majority of SMU students are already searching for their graduation job in year 3 sem 1 of a 4 year course. For certain competitive jobs like investment banking and management consulting, one needs to build up a competitive track record, which means you need to start planning the direction to build your portfolio latest by the start of year 2.

"Job Experience:"
Do internships that add more value.

This is also linked to your desire for a job, because a competitive internship as I mentioned earlier will require a good track record and ability to pass the interviews.

"On Campus Recruiting:"
Okay he mentioned that this is a killer but I think that if you are really better, you can overcome this. Even token recruitment has its limits.

The caveat is that you must really be better. You can apply to the firm directly. If I am an investment firm recruiter and you demonstrate that you can analyse and pitch stocks significantly better than the straight A double degree scholar from a better known university I might choose you even though I think that the other student has a better school name. But if both of you deliver roughly the same quality of analysis, then I would be inclined to recruit the person with a better school name/track record.

"Leadership Experience:"
He labelled the section as "leadership experience" but I think what he described was more about CCA records + overseas exchange. Overseas exchange aside, I believe that private uni students can also build up vibrant CCA records. He represented SMU and took up an exco position? I believe SIM students have similar opportunities.

All in all, the gist is simply to be better. Be so good that companies want you more than the other local uni grads.

Singapore has public libraries and free internet connection. Information that one needs to upgrade oneself is available to any Tom, Dick or Harry on the street! There is no excuse!
I am the original post creator and I agree with the points you have refuted. The key point here is, how many actually do? The profile mentioned above is a typical SMU student, that's probably about 50% to 70% of the student population whereas someone of this profile at SIM would probably be 30% to 40% of the student population. By sheer numbers alone, a private grad will always be at a disadvantage which brings to the original last point - the culture. The fact that SIM is not as competitive as SMU, puts it as at significant disadvantage from day one. SMU students learn in a very cut-throat environment while SIM is much more laid-back, its something that is hard to change and considering that SIM takes in student of questionable calibre (Poly GPA less than 2.0 - seriously, I've been through poly and there's no excuse to get less than this), SIM will pretty much be at the lower end of the pecking order.

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  #1552 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
What is there to rebut?

It's simple.

BE BETTER!

All he did was give insight on the profile of an above average SMU student. Lets run through every category he mentioned:

"Desire for a Job:"
If local university students start finding jobs at the start of their final year, private university students can always start searching for jobs earlier. Start on day 1.

Idk about NUS/NTU/SUTD but most SMU students take the internship at the end of year 3 very seriously, as if they are applying for a real job because they hope to convert that internship into a full-time job. This means that they are already finding their graduation job before they even apply for their end of year 3 internship, which is typically year 3 sem 1. Yup, so the majority of SMU students are already searching for their graduation job in year 3 sem 1 of a 4 year course. For certain competitive jobs like investment banking and management consulting, one needs to build up a competitive track record, which means you need to start planning the direction to build your portfolio latest by the start of year 2.

"Job Experience:"
Do internships that add more value.

This is also linked to your desire for a job, because a competitive internship as I mentioned earlier will require a good track record and ability to pass the interviews.

"On Campus Recruiting:"
Okay he mentioned that this is a killer but I think that if you are really better, you can overcome this. Even token recruitment has its limits.

The caveat is that you must really be better. You can apply to the firm directly. If I am an investment firm recruiter and you demonstrate that you can analyse and pitch stocks significantly better than the straight A double degree scholar from a better known university I might choose you even though I think that the other student has a better school name. But if both of you deliver roughly the same quality of analysis, then I would be inclined to recruit the person with a better school name/track record.

"Leadership Experience:"
He labelled the section as "leadership experience" but I think what he described was more about CCA records + overseas exchange. Overseas exchange aside, I believe that private uni students can also build up vibrant CCA records. He represented SMU and took up an exco position? I believe SIM students have similar opportunities.

All in all, the gist is simply to be better. Be so good that companies want you more than the other local uni grads.

Singapore has public libraries and free internet connection. Information that one needs to upgrade oneself is available to any Tom, Dick or Harry on the street! There is no excuse!
"But if both of you deliver roughly the same quality of analysis, then I would be inclined to recruit the person with a better school name/track record "

CASE CLOSED. SIM students are doomed since day 1.
Seem like only networking with people in the industry & a bit of luck is the way for SIM Student.



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  #1553 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 01:49 PM
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Sim uol grad here. Doing b2b sales to FIs in a MNC. i'm below 30 drawing base of 9k. Comms per annum varies from 3-9months depending on the revenue i bring in.
Doing sales does NOT count.
I've seen those with O-Level only and yet they can earn hundreds of thousands or even millions per annum doing sales.

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  #1554 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
"But if both of you deliver roughly the same quality of analysis, then I would be inclined to recruit the person with a better school name/track record "

CASE CLOSED. SIM students are doomed since day 1.
Seem like only networking with people in the industry & a bit of luck is the way for SIM Student.
Dude. I'm the poster from #1531. Your analysis is out of whacked. First you quoted a statement that set out that given A and A is the same, then someone with a stronger B criterion would be selected. However, what you are simply implying is that all local uni (even the lousiest) students would definitely deliver the same quality or even better quality analysis than any SIM students (even the best). Hence, there would never be a need for employers to even look at criterion B. This is clear from your statement which states that SIM students are doomed since day 1. That is a generalisation and simply not true. Some people like me simply made a really bad mistake of partying hard and neglecting studies when we were young. Your statement doomed us for future success despite having another 20+ years of career run ahead of us? Though I have to concur with you that local uni credentials are much better given that SIM student does not do anything to improve our own odds. And that is not just networking and a bit of luck.

In SMU Masters for Applied Finance program, the first Singaporean who ever scored perfect GPA within the program was from SIM-UOL and currently works in a PE fund as an investment analyst. That wasn't too long ago, I think last year's batch and that person just graduated from SIM-UOL within the last few years. If you want to dig, you can call SMU or ask any of your friends who did the SMU MFA program. You can also find that person's profile if you do some linkedin digging. That SIM-UOL person positioned themselves into a good position due to hard work post grad, not just a bit of luck and networking. You may brush this off, but your statement kinda imply that any local uni students can get into a PE fund as and when they wish for it because SIM-UOL student cannot be within the industry other than luck and networking.

I know you have strong feelings against some of the disillusioned SIM students here, I do too, and there are definitely many loonies in this thread. However, your view that past success necessitates future success is dangerous. Correlation does not imply causation. Future success of any individual is not determined by first 21 years of hard work, but continuous hard work. Career is a marathon, not a sprint. We are just 1/3 into our pre-retirement life and 10% into our working career.

This is an internet forum and I have nothing to prove. I felt like I have said my piece. If continuous bashing of SIM-UOL student makes you happy, I'm glad you have found your happy place here. Hope you don't do that openly offline too. Cheers!
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  #1555 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 03:26 PM
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Doing sales does NOT count.
I've seen those with O-Level only and yet they can earn hundreds of thousands or even millions per annum doing sales.
Doing sales does not count? Sales is a generic word.

B2B salespeople engage with decision makers (aka senior management) of other companies. They require high EQ, IQ, deep domain expertise and executive presence. By graduating from a local university only gets you a tick on the IQ box, nothing else.

Let me enlighten you with some examples of "b2b sales" titles:
Business Development Manager/Director
Sales Engineer
Relationship Manager/Director
Sales Trader
Technical Sales Representative
Solution Sales
Account Manger/Director
Brokers (commodities, shipping, derivatives, fx, equities, bonds, credit)
Partnerships Managers/Directors
Private Bankers
Partners

Many of these people will become regional directors, and eventually CEOs.

So does it count now?
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  #1556 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 03:47 PM
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Dude. I'm the poster from #1531. Your analysis is out of whacked. First you quoted a statement that set out that given A and A is the same, then someone with a stronger B criterion would be selected. However, what you are simply implying is that all local uni (even the lousiest) students would definitely deliver the same quality or even better quality analysis than any SIM students (even the best). Hence, there would never be a need for employers to even look at criterion B. This is clear from your statement which states that SIM students are doomed since day 1. That is a generalisation and simply not true. Some people like me simply made a really bad mistake of partying hard and neglecting studies when we were young. Your statement doomed us for future success despite having another 20+ years of career run ahead of us? Though I have to concur with you that local uni credentials are much better given that SIM student does not do anything to improve our own odds. And that is not just networking and a bit of luck.

In SMU Masters for Applied Finance program, the first Singaporean who ever scored perfect GPA within the program was from SIM-UOL and currently works in a PE fund as an investment analyst. That wasn't too long ago, I think last year's batch and that person just graduated from SIM-UOL within the last few years. If you want to dig, you can call SMU or ask any of your friends who did the SMU MFA program. You can also find that person's profile if you do some linkedin digging. That SIM-UOL person positioned themselves into a good position due to hard work post grad, not just a bit of luck and networking. You may brush this off, but your statement kinda imply that any local uni students can get into a PE fund as and when they wish for it because SIM-UOL student cannot be within the industry other than luck and networking.

I know you have strong feelings against some of the disillusioned SIM students here, I do too, and there are definitely many loonies in this thread. However, your view that past success necessitates future success is dangerous. Correlation does not imply causation. Future success of any individual is not determined by first 21 years of hard work, but continuous hard work. Career is a marathon, not a sprint. We are just 1/3 into our pre-retirement life and 10% into our working career.

This is an internet forum and I have nothing to prove. I felt like I have said my piece. If continuous bashing of SIM-UOL student makes you happy, I'm glad you have found your happy place here. Hope you don't do that openly offline too. Cheers!

There is nothing "out of whacked". The "doomed from day 1" statement is simply true. By not accepting that, you are simply living in denial.

There are some traits you can automatically assume from university alone. An NUS grad is going to be an all-rounder, an NTU grad is going to have a vibrant hall life and strong ccas, an SMU grad is going to be able to do presentations well.

What can you assume from an SIM grad? That he has already failed and seeking a second chance?

Like it or not, that is the truth. Nobody is saying SIM grads are totally useless. People only get irritated when SIM grads keep thinking they are on par with local uni grads. They are simply much weaker.

An MFA is for people who wants to do a career switch. Nobody cares about a guy doing MFA getting perfect GPA. Thats because nobody from a local uni who majored in business or econs needs to do an MFA. Your classmates in MFA is simply weak from the get go.
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  #1557 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 04:09 PM
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There is nothing "out of whacked". The "doomed from day 1" statement is simply true. By not accepting that, you are simply living in denial.

There are some traits you can automatically assume from university alone. An NUS grad is going to be an all-rounder, an NTU grad is going to have a vibrant hall life and strong ccas, an SMU grad is going to be able to do presentations well.

What can you assume from an SIM grad? That he has already failed and seeking a second chance?

Like it or not, that is the truth. Nobody is saying SIM grads are totally useless. People only get irritated when SIM grads keep thinking they are on par with local uni grads. They are simply much weaker.

An MFA is for people who wants to do a career switch. Nobody cares about a guy doing MFA getting perfect GPA. Thats because nobody from a local uni who majored in business or econs needs to do an MFA. Your classmates in MFA is simply weak from the get go.
So your only traits to performing well in life are only things you picked up in university? Hahahaha!!! Such narrow world view. Well, I guess your local universities taught you that well. Good stuff!
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  #1558 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 04:39 PM
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There is nothing "out of whacked". The "doomed from day 1" statement is simply true. By not accepting that, you are simply living in denial.

There are some traits you can automatically assume from university alone. An NUS grad is going to be an all-rounder, an NTU grad is going to have a vibrant hall life and strong ccas, an SMU grad is going to be able to do presentations well.

What can you assume from an SIM grad? That he has already failed and seeking a second chance?

Like it or not, that is the truth. Nobody is saying SIM grads are totally useless. People only get irritated when SIM grads keep thinking they are on par with local uni grads. They are simply much weaker.

An MFA is for people who wants to do a career switch. Nobody cares about a guy doing MFA getting perfect GPA. Thats because nobody from a local uni who majored in business or econs needs to do an MFA. Your classmates in MFA is simply weak from the get go.
To even remotely label any learning institution as "doomed from day 1" simply reflects your own naivety. I'm even starting to doubt if you've even passed GP with such sweeping statements.

To the poster from #1531, i would say just save your energy with this one. It's pretty clear that guy who agrees with such a statement is the one living in denial. Probably suffering from some superiority complex to conceal his inadequacies.

The point of this thread is let graduates from SIM-UOL know that you can succeed in the corporate world as illustrated by many who have done so, myself included.
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  #1559 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 08:08 PM
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To even remotely label any learning institution as "doomed from day 1" simply reflects your own naivety. I'm even starting to doubt if you've even passed GP with such sweeping statements.

To the poster from #1531, i would say just save your energy with this one. It's pretty clear that guy who agrees with such a statement is the one living in denial. Probably suffering from some superiority complex to conceal his inadequacies.

The point of this thread is let graduates from SIM-UOL know that you can succeed in the corporate world as illustrated by many who have done so, myself included.

It is obvious that SIMians completely fail at secondary level comprehension skills.

It is actually very amusing when they try to use their version of logic to debate and actually question the english skills of others - ie paragraph 1 of #1554 and #1558.

It is really questionable if they are even capable of doing any form of analysis at all.
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  #1560 (permalink)  
Old 26-12-2015, 11:03 PM
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It is obvious that SIMians completely fail at secondary level comprehension skills.

It is actually very amusing when they try to use their version of logic to debate and actually question the english skills of others - ie paragraph 1 of #1554 and #1558.

It is really questionable if they are even capable of doing any form of analysis at all.
I don't think you'll want to venture down the path to find out who has superior command of the English language. Your sentences are weakly structured, repetitive and riddled with grammatical errors. Let me guess, you are from the Faculty of Engineering?

A sense of entitlement coupled with your superiority complex also tells me you have not stepped into the corporate world. Good luck, you'll need it!
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