a sad day for engineering
 

i hold a degree in engineering, with plenty of portfolio in software engineering. told my prospective employer that i can code in anything from andriod to apple devices to java. they were impressed with my engineering skills despite having no professional experiences. this is because, i am currently in the finance sector.

i asked my fellow course mates who are in this line, they are all paid at least 3 to 3.6k. so i requested for 3.5k and promised to work ot, weekends and to drive their sales. apps on the store can easily earn their revenue and a good mobile programmer definitely cost much higher.

however, they told me they can offer no more than 3k. i am currently drawing 3.3k in finance back-office, a comfortable and stress-free administrative environment with no ot. i think it makes no sense to do a job switch back. are andriod/apple programmers so dis-respected in the market? it's no wonder that sg engineers are facing sad times.

Why do you want to switch from finance sector to engineering? Stay in the bank and move around within banking.

hi paymemore,

be patient in the finance sector, at least your prospect is much better than a engineer. i see that u are doing much better in finance than in engineering.

i see potential in the mobile app stores. the ecosystem is growing steadily. a single game like angry birds can hit hundred of thousands of downloads yet the mechanics are simple.i decided to give a shot at being back as a programmer, creating software which people enjoy using. i released useful and free apps on both andriod and ios so experience is not a problem. as long as users are happy, i am happy.

finance can get boring at times, because u're doing the same thing and looking at numbers. i am wondering where i can find wise employers who are willing to pay for quality mobile developers.

hi paymemore

i admire your skills and your drive in software development. if one day i required someone to help me in iOS or Android i will give u a shout.
i am currently still lose in making my next move. i hope to own a business
but i am still lose and trying to figure out what to do.

regrds

A sad life in engineering, not sad day
 

if u are seeing disrespect to the engineers for this today, when u switch to engineering, u will be seeing & getting this disrespect every day, in your life, not only for 1 day.

Consider again. This is what the colonial mindset hangover we are still seeing in singapore even today, that anything foreign is any good.

either... or...
 

Hi,

You have very high enthusiasm in Apps and you seem to have experience in it, so why not treat it as an after-work business and continue to work on it and grow it as your own?

I think it's hard to find an employer who would have the vision as you do AND at the same time to give you a pay, given that this app business is very new and honestly, only a handful of the apps business are big. I saw most of them are very small business made up of 1-3 person. Well I may be wrong...

The only exception I could think of is, of course, Apple! Consider getting into the company by any position and work your way up.

J

Hmm, I think you should try start ups. They pay pretty well at least >5K.

I thought startups here don't pay well.

Really
 

If ur this passionate and good, why not go abroad and follow ur passion. Why stay in Singapore and look for something that sucks in Singapore.

Well, they don't. Although i'm an Associate Software Engineer myself, and they don't even want to pay more than 1.6k for someone like me who have 1 year+ experience and a portfolio with filled with software development work in both mobile and PC applications.

Why? Foreigners can do more with less. But from my understanding, they don't. They're more suited for being paper engineers than actual engineers.

My advice, go abroad and don't come back. That's what I'll be doing so once I'd get my Degree in Electrical Engg (I may persue an additional Degree in Physics as I don't see much in staying in pure engineering sad to say)

It's the same scene in IT so as the same in Engineering. Foreign 'Talents' is taking up the spots, but most can't even do the job right.

From my personal experience and observations: Yes, startups like to hire cheap workers from India and Asean region. These are what I call mid-range jobs. Even for higher-end jobs like those in banking IT, if you get an Indian as CEO, CIO or head of something (thanks to our government's excellent pro-foreign talent policies), do you think he'll not hire more Indians? They can talk about anti-discrimination all they want, but take a walk in Changi Business Park and Marina Bay Financial Centre and you'll know the truth.

Yes, you should get out this place while you're still young.

Frankly once you seen enough of this, you will get numb or immune to it. Personally I work in Changi Biz Park and seen more than my fair share of such discrimination whereby once u let a black in, sooner or later the whole dept will be filled with black just like the chinese game weiqi.

My advise, migrate. just like our forefathers who come to SEA to escape the hardship in China. The process is the same just that today we are much more lucky than them due to technological advancement. Come to think of it, things go round in a circle hahaha

Rich singaporeans already starting to migrate to other countries like Aussie or New Zealand. Ordinary folks like us can either marry a foreign wife and use that as a way to migrate or invest in other countries (provided you got the money).

Anyway work hard, save some money, invest wisely, do some side businesses (I know same old advise) and get the FXXX out of here. Singapore is getting smelly each day. hahaha

hi ,

yes agree with your findings
indeed singaporeans engineering career or job is limited or getting limited
if u are too expensive to be hired, it give the overhead.
for indian/china workers, they are usually from a lower living standard and thus
they can opt for a lower income and replace the higher income engineer.
most employer or bosses feel that engineers are cheap these days , either
u work at this rate or they bring in indian/china/piony etc

i do not see any form of recovery in engineering field in singapore at all
and infact i feel it is shrinking rapidly. i am interested to find out what engineering fresh grad landing a job and how to sustain that job in the long run.

regards

IT jobs in banks pay quite well, typically above 100k if you are a middle manager in mid-thirties, but because there's no ethnic quota like in HDB, you see only one particular culture dominating the entire banking IT sector in Singapore.

Singaporeans first my foot.

hi

so you feel that it is lesser preference of a singaporean in those sector.
i am not in IT but in software engineering so i not sure in bank IT job.
is the particular culture cheaper or better to higher or indeed their education is better or their exposure to IT is better than over graduates?
just want to map out the differences between local and "FT" and finding out
what are the various reason companies are choosing those instead of us as well as while we are being squeeze out, what are the option left for us..

regards

No, these fellows in banks are not cheaper. And Singaporeans can definitely do the jobs they do. I'm 100% certain. The reason they got in is because the whole gang is from the same culture. A while ago, someone already wrote to the papers about the problem of enclaves in MNCs. I guess the official stance from government that such PMET jobs are subject to competition from international talent coming here to fight with us. Judge for yourself how fair is that when the heads and CxOs are from the same foreign culture.

I really hope Singaporeans can build up their own enclaves and fend for ourselves. We must be more united as our government doesn't really care about us PMETs.

Enclaves can't be helped.

1) You may already know this: sw engg has little to do with actual sw coding. Think sw engg, think uml diagrams and language independent design.

2) Some companies prefer the title 'sw developer' or 'sw technician' to differentiate coders from architects (engineers). Apply for the right one.

3) FYP or other mini projects is not considered experience in the engg industry esp in terms of sw engg. I think arts students are the only ones who can make good use of their portfolio for fresh job applications.

4) code in anything.....to java? Don't mash languages and platforms together. Whether intentional or not, it is not professional. It may get pass HR but definitely won't get pass the tech guys at an interview. Perhaps you should say that you are proficient in Java and have exp developing sw on so and so devices (platforms). Describing the architecture of relevant APIs is a surefire way to convince the tech guys at an interview.

5) Currently, when we hear 'apps', we think of 'non-critical sw for mobile devices'. Developers for casual/simple apps are not paid well for obvious reasons. Financial apps for big banks are probably the only ones that pays well. If you want a higher pay with sw, drop the 'apps' related jobs and go for companies that require mission or safety critical sw. Testers are paid plenty, coders are paid highly and architects are paid handsomely. I can vouch for that. "Cheap and good" hires do not exist in these companies.

thanks for the quality advice.

perhaps i was too caught up in coding and producing results, and failed to look at the bigger picture from the employer's pov.

i still hold the hope that fresh graduates like me will someday say that engineering has the brightest future in sg.

I am a NUE ME grad myself and I can tell you engineering has fewer oppurtunities and lower average pay compared to other industry like Banking/Finance and Accounting.

Its all due to the Government's direction for the country. When young, I was like thousands of other students listening to our teacher's advice and went engineering as that was the direction the country was taking. Singapore wanted to go into high tech precision manufacturing like Luxenbourg, Belgium and Germany. Then suddenly everyone wanted to study engineering.

Before that it was the Dot.com era and Computer Science faculty was full of people wanting to be Bill Gates and Yahoo Founders.

Just before I graduated the Government announced they wanted to do Life Sciences. Suddenly all the bright minds in Singapore wanted in. In JCs there were increased numbers in people taking Bio and Chem. Look what happen to Life Science? As they say, the brightest minds are now washing test-tubes?

Right now the blue-eyed boy is Banking and Finance, which previously was less sought after. Singapore now wants to be a Banking and Finance hub for the region and for Asia.

Generations of our brightest minds were wasted one after another. What do you do now that your people are of the wrong skill set? Either retrain or bring in FTs. Which one is faster?

Morale of the story is learn something that you can bring along across various industries (Like accounting and IT). And be prepared to be retrained. I was a bit fortunate that my engineering skills were helpful in my IT career (i was concentrating on Mechatronics modules plus my interest was in IT).

Like one of our "leaders" once said to a group of students

"It is easier to retrain an engineer to be an accountant but you will have a hard time training an accountant to be an engineer".

In order not to be caught as the country changes directions look out for signs our government is taking us. Else get out of the country and go somewhere where we engineers are highly valued (e.g. Australia). Even a brick layer and plumber in Australia has more respect and earn more.

I still remember this incident told to me by a vendor. He went over to Australia to visit his NUS friend (same tutorial) and stay at his place. When he reached his friend's house, his friend took him out out to the walkway and made a few calls. Suddenly from across the road came a guy running over and my vendor recognized him as from his NUS tutorial group. Then from the left and right came another 3 more friends also from his own NUS tutorial group. Apparently what happened was my vendor's friend was the first to go Australia. And then he brought his friends along with them as his company expanded (Doesnt this sound familiar?). And now the street of 12 houses 5 of them belong to them.

Maybe stop and take a step back, and re-think. Engineering in Singapore has a bright future... but for who and at how much?

Chew on that, buddy. ;)

I certainly hope there is an engineer out there who can step out and say their working life is actually okay.

As a final year engineering undergrad, I feel so hopeless reading all these forum topics.
I don't even feel like dipping my feet into engineering already.
It seems so grim.

Hey buddy, it is not doomsday yet.

There are jobs out there. And engineers are decently paid.

It is just that if you look into the future, these jobs will likely go to a cheaper foreigner.

India and China produce more than 1 MILLION engineers from their universities. Trust more than a few to come to our shores.

So... back to demand and supply determining the price, right?

engineering really sux, especially the pay, one of my colleague who have been working in the same company St engineering for almost 10 years, 2nd lower honours get only about 4.1k/mth with 2 promotions inclusive!!!

I used to be working there then I did a jump. And drawing about 5.4k now. Still low compared to some of my new colleagues at my position (6k to 7k).

10 years getting 4.1k is actually normal in ST. Typical yearly increment is only 2 to 3%. Promotion is around 8 to 10%. Unless you are a "scolar" or Top Talent your chances for promotion is not high. You really need to excel (as a farmer), and outperforming scholars and TT. Even then promotion is not garanteed.

And ST being ST, SAF officers are parachuted into higher management posts. Chances of moving up is even smaller. In fact almost zero. You need to handle many high profile projects to move up.

Some of my ex-colleagues at M2 grade (12 to 15 years in ST, their first job) were only commanding 5k. And these people can really perform and manage vendors. Thats why ST engineers are in hot demand outside as ST is a good training ground. A check with IDA or DSTA you will find that their HR likes ST engineers as they can perform and stay the longest. Your friend might want to consider jumping.

I also believe your friend has been seeing new hires coming in at 5k to 6k with M1 and M2 grades, with lesser years of work experience.

When I went for my interview for my new job, my present supervisor was asking me

"10 years experience and you are getting 4.4k?"

AKA

"10 years already and your pay is so low? Why didnt you leave?"

i got a software engineering based job thanks to fellow peeps here!

was offered about 3.6k... because i'll be going into a niche area doing mission critical work. of cos this might be low compared to everyone here, but i think this is a start for someone without experience like me.

currently a lot of HR are telling me they prefer Sg citizens due to the new policy over hiring FTs. but at the same time companies are finding it harder to find sg citizens to fill the roles. i'm still not sure how long this new policy is going to hold and i am not too optimistic about my future.

will see how it goes!

That's why ST is famous for being a dumping ground for people with not good degrees to train and gain experience before jumping to other companies.

It's also a retirement home for senior people who simply wants to relax at work with an average pay and don't care for promotions.

If belong to either of them, then ST is perfect for you. If not, you'll really suffer with a low pay that will not match up with your hardworking attitude. Sign-on army would be better than joining ST. At least in army its more relaxed and higher pay.