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Cornell vs Cambridge vs SMU

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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 29-04-2011, 04:29 PM
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There is no irony at all. I'm just questioning because I'm doubtful. You on the other hand are declaring and seconding belief! ... and then chickening out when challenged

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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 02-05-2011, 08:01 PM
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California, I have been reading your posts and you have come across as sincere and forthright, to the extent of even registering a User Name to support your authenticity.
Thanks for the support. I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone or win any sort of internet debate, and I really have nothing to gain personally from convincing people one way or another. In fact, it would probably be to my benefit if more people disagree with my views (and thus won't even bother looking / going for the opportunities that do exist). Nonetheless, my motive is to give another point of view to those who are looking for something other than 'Singapore sucks, go overseas if you wanna do well'. At the very least, I hope people will at least consider what I'm saying and take it as food for thought.

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Unfortunately, sincere and forthright doesn't mean right. You may mean the best but be completely wrong. It also appears that he has stretched the definition of equivalence between Singapore and California since his situation involves rich parents with lots of assets. Anyone who disagrees has a right to express it here. California is a young man feeling his way around his first job. He may have headed the wrong way, but he seems happy - at least for now.
I agree, having good motives doesn't mean I am right. I never claimed that my views and opinions were the absolute, unquestionable truth that encompassed every person and situation. If I ever gave anyone that impression then I sincerely apologize - I've tried my best to make it clear that I am only speaking from the experiences of myself, friends, and family as well as qualify almost every statement that I make with caveats that it does not apply to everyone. I welcome contrary opinions and believe that the readers (as well as myself) will benefit from the differing viewpoints rather than blindly believing what a single person says.

On a personal note, I never based any of my opinions or advice around socio-economic status. That bit about cars / money / etc was only in response to a very specific statement that only concerned me and my situation, I didn't leverage this aspect to support what I've said about anything else. I agree that I am young and feeling my way around my first (second?) job - I'm not an expert or know-it-all by any means. Perhaps I went the wrong way, perhaps I made the right choice - there is really no way of telling. And if I ever cease to be happy with the decisions I have made, it's never too late to turn back.

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I'm glad you mostly agree. However on the above point, I'd also suggest that a S$6K employee of a Singapore-based investment bank isn't able to judge whether people in NY make many many times more than in Singapore....

Singaporeans can make it in bulge bracket investment banks. Singaporeans head major divisions of BB investment banks. If you think this way, you are unlikely to make it.
First off, my firm is not Singapore based nor is it an investment bank. It's a totally global financial company (in fact, the HQ is in New York) who is the commanding leader in it's field by a huge margin. But that really isn't the point..

Secondly, I'm not stating my views from the perspective of a "S$6k employee of a Singapore-based investment bank" (as above, I'm not). I'm stating my views as someone who has numerous friends and family who are working in the top finance / consulting / etc companies in New York/London/Singapore/etc in addition to having been offered some of these positions and salaries personally. On top of direct class/course mates from university, the big schools have amazing alumni networks all around the world in all different industries, and we all talk and share our experiences and numbers to give each other a better perspective. Lastly, I've read sufficient books / articles / sites on the different positions, companies, industries, and locations (glassdoor.com is a pretty nifty one) to ensure that I'm not making naive and unqualified claims.

Let's take 'many many times' to equal 3x or more (though it's very debate-able whether or not 3 even counts as 'many many', I'd think it would be something more like 10x). Let's also assume that the good financial companies pay around $40-50k for their average fresh-grad analyst hires. This would imply their counterparts (average new analyst hires in good financial companies) in in New York make $120-150k? (for the sake of simplicity, we let tax and exchange rate cancel out, though this is in favor of the US). I think $120-150k is a pretty far stretch for an average fresh grad, from past experiences and interactions the number should be closer to $60-80k. Of course, you may be referring to the higher levels, but the disparity still isn't as large (again, for people of comparable positions / background / etc), unless you want to go to the CEO / etc level, which is very hard to compare and isn't too relevant for the vast majority of people. I understand we have made a lot of assumptions here (almost all have been in favor of your claim), so if you would like to counter with your own examples / assumptions then by all means, please do (I want to add that I am not looking to argue with you, or anyone else for that matter. I'm simply opening the floor to a constructive debate where we can state our opinions in an educational manner. As previously stated, this will be to the benefit of the reader and as well as give ourselves an opportunity to understand other points of view).

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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2011, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by California View Post
Let's take 'many many times' to equal 3x or more (though it's very debate-able whether or not 3 even counts as 'many many', I'd think it would be something more like 10x). Let's also assume that the good financial companies pay around $40-50k for their average fresh-grad analyst hires. This would imply their counterparts (average new analyst hires in good financial companies) in in New York make $120-150k? (for the sake of simplicity, we let tax and exchange rate cancel out, though this is in favor of the US). I think $120-150k is a pretty far stretch for an average fresh grad, from past experiences and interactions the number should be closer to $60-80k.
Bulge bracket investment banks in New York have a pretty standard package for graduates. It used to be USD100K base, but has risen to about USD120K after the global financial crisis because salaries were adjusted upwards to compensate for lower bonuses (required by the Fed, which now regulates the investment banks turned commercial banks). For graduates, bonus is usually fixed for the first one-two years and then varies on performance when you move from graduate to Associate. It's typically USD100K as well, so if you are starting at a bulge bracket investment bank in NY, expect USD220K for the first two years. After that, if you survive (about 10-20% do), you can finally make some serious money. However, entry into BB in New York is very competitive, even if you are an Ivy graduate.

Summer Interns at Goldman Sachs in New York are paid USD6,000+ pm. Its similar for the other BB IBs. Ask around.

Come to think of it, starting base salaries for graduates at New York investment banks 30 years ago were already about S$80K. Wonder how I know

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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2011, 06:15 PM
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the two of you need to stop pissing on each other over the salary issue; it is becoming embarassing.

both of you are right and wrong at the same time.

typical analyst package (ie undergrad with no experience, and in some cases master/phd with no experience) is as what California says: in the realm of 50-70k base, 10k-20k sign on plus relocation, and another 30-50k for the first full year bonus (ie end of 1.5Y; first bonus is a stub paid for 5-6months of service). So total package for first full year is around 80-120k, excluding sign on.

typical associate package (master with experience or phd without experience) is around 100-120k base plus 20-30k sign-on plus relocation (in my good times, i got 50k) and another 50-70k for full year bonus. So the package is around 150-190k. 220k is on the high side that i would cover unlikely but not impossible. after all, bonus is at the discretion of your boss, and if he likes you (for your formal or informal work), bonus can be higher than usual.

and yes, i am the interviewer of numeorus super day interviews, and have particpated in too many meaningless selection processes that follow the super day. And yes, i work for an ib in nyc that is considered bb.

Now, move on.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2011, 08:55 AM
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typical analyst package (ie undergrad with no experience, and in some cases master/phd with no experience) is as what California says: in the realm of 50-70k base, 10k-20k sign on plus relocation, and another 30-50k for the first full year bonus (ie end of 1.5Y; first bonus is a stub paid for 5-6months of service). So total package for first full year is around 80-120k, excluding sign on.
My experience is specifically, with Goldman, CS and Deutsche. This is definitely NOT what an analyst graduating from a top school like Wharton, Harvard, Princeton or Yale would expect. If you offered a total of 80-120K to them to work in New York City, they would laugh at you. Perhaps your firm might be "considered BB" by you, but not not by those applying from the top schools.

In any case, I don't think California was estimating based on BB Investment Banks, but a regular financial services firm.

The fact that you participate in super day interviews doesn't mean you know exactly what is being offered to whom and what the budgets are. Only someone who runs a unit will.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:03 AM
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Guys, there is no need to argue. The graduate salaries are published by the Universities and available on the internet.

From what I can see, the mean first year salary for a fresh Stanford MBA Grad in the Class of 2010 working in the Northeast (i.e., New York City) is $130,741. His mean signing bonus was $31,250 and his other mean guaranteed compensation was $133,375. So the mean total comp was $295,366. Phew! The median was $265,000.

However, most chose to work in the West (LA, SFO), and the mean total compensation was $197,830. Looks like there is a $100K difference between the West and the Northeast!
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:22 AM
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typical analyst package (ie undergrad with no experience, and in some cases master/phd with no experience) is as what California says: in the realm of 50-70k base, 10k-20k sign on plus relocation, and another 30-50k for the first full year bonus (ie end of 1.5Y; first bonus is a stub paid for 5-6months of service). So total package for first full year is around 80-120k, excluding sign on.
But aren't you actually saying that California is wrong because he estimated $60-80K and you are estimating $80-120K? Also, when I add up your numbers, you seem to be estimating $90-$140K rather than $80-120K that is 70+20+50 = 140
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:09 AM
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Hi, I'm a 2010 grad from Wharton's undergraduate program and will be working in New York. I would say that most of us (including me) got jobs through on-campus recruitment. The Bulge Bracket offers this year for me and my fellow graduates were about $80-90K and a $20-30K signon bonus as a generalist analyst. I'm told they were higher than last year by Wharton's career placement office (which is a really fantastic organisation). I'm told that some of the top students like the valedictorian were able to get offers over $100K. There was a guaranteed minimum bonus in some of our offers, but most of us expect to get more - at least 6-12 months for our first bonus because we are going to work our asses off. The guys who went to the boutiques, hedge funds and smaller firms got a little less at $40-70K.
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:32 AM
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I'm the poster who suggested that investment bankers in NY earn "many many times" what they do in Singapore.

I was talking in general. Not about newbie first year graduates! If you read my post carefully, you will see that I said that the experience you get in NY working on large deals is what builds your value... into many many times the compensation you could make in Singapore.
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2011, 12:38 PM
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My experience is specifically, with Goldman, CS and Deutsche. This is definitely NOT what an analyst graduating from a top school like Wharton, Harvard, Princeton or Yale would expect. If you offered a total of 80-120K to them to work in New York City, they would laugh at you. Perhaps your firm might be "considered BB" by you, but not not by those applying from the top schools.

In any case, I don't think California was estimating based on BB Investment Banks, but a regular financial services firm.

The fact that you participate in super day interviews doesn't mean you know exactly what is being offered to whom and what the budgets are. Only someone who runs a unit will.
stop being a twit. i worked or work for two of the 3 firms you mentioned. And base compensation for the analyst program is fixed regardless of where you graduate. And you don't need to run a unit to decide analyst pay because it comes from a common pool.

i don't think you know what you are talking about, or at least, i'm sure you have very limited, probably no, first-hand experience, and are probably arguing on hearsay.

120k for a fresh grad is a dream, even in nyc, where the median family salary is around 60-80k.

get a life, and shut up already.
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