Working in a bank

i am an honors graduate from one of the local universities. Gotten into deans' list couple of times, did an overseas stint at a european university and participated actively in some academic activities. my tutors know me by name and the deans write letters of recommendation for me. gotten into some average bank to do a senseless internship and regretted not getting anywhere else instead.

now im looking for a job. but i dont feel confident even with my CV, because i am average. I know the finance literature well, i know the terminology, i've got my personal valuation models built complete with codes. i felt i've got everything when i'm in school.

but that's because competition was school-wide. a couple of hundreds.

now i step into the working world with doubts. competition has stiffened, hundreds of times. my CV is compared not across Singapore but throughout the world. people everywhere are looking for jobs. graduates are everywhere.

it leaves me helpless sometimes, when i compare myself to others outside. whats so special about me?

eric, one word of advice for you.
you're not competing with just the people around you. instead, you're competing with the world. the recruiter has to find something special about you, not just any "i'm inspired by the quick pace of life in FO, or i have experience in my own trading account." you need to be SPECIAL. find that quality in you that nobody else has, at least in the people around you right now. use that quality to convince HR that they will regret if they lose you.

remember, its not just "i'm diligent in my work. i'm careful with numbers. i'm a team worker."
HR probably has 999 reponses like that out of that 1000 applications. Inspire them with your one quality and back your claim with solid instances. And should they not appreciate that, simply walk away because it will be their loss instead.

Good luck!

AP

I had been working in bank most of my working life. From back to mid to front office. the transition is near to impossible and I would not encourage anyone to try it unless you are prepared for the worst which is what happened to 99% of those who tried-- that is to struck in back office clearing settlement for FO forever (there used to have a saying, you start in ops, you rot in ops). For the thousand of young grads out there who wants to join front office as a trader or investment banker who earn more than doctor, lawyer or even admin officers of their ages, ask yourself "who does not want that and why is it have to be you among the thousands to grab it ?" I have came across many many grads like Eric who aspired to be FO but don't know how and in no way getting nearer to the goal. my advice will be "don't try because many (99%) had tried and flopped" It is not something like the common advice "if you try hard enough, you will make it". This does not apply here. Age is also a factor (not when you are near 30 previously doing other unrelated stuff). some of the common lousy methods include
1) Study a MBA (from half -past- six universities)
2) study a CFA or do a CPA
3) Get into investment bank backoffice and try to snake through to the front (it works only for maybe 0.1%)
4) Do own trading and tried to prove that you are a great trader. (No one interested in your trading anyway)
5) show a lot of "A+" in academics results

For more reliable methods...... I will post again if anyone wants

[ericgohjunhui]

Thanks sir for the repy. I would really appreciate what are the reliable methods so I have a target or something I can look forward to. Thanks alot

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I had been working in bank most of my working life. From back to mid to front office. the transition is near to impossible and I would not encourage anyone to try it unless you are prepared for the worst which is what happened to 99% of those who tried-- that is to struck in back office clearing settlement for FO forever (there used to have a saying, you start in ops, you rot in ops). For the thousand of young grads out there who wants to join front office as a trader or investment banker who earn more than doctor, lawyer or even admin officers of their ages, ask yourself "who does not want that and why is it have to be you among the thousands to grab it ?" I have came across many many grads like Eric who aspired to be FO but don't know how and in no way getting nearer to the goal. my advice will be "don't try because many (99%) had tried and flopped" It is not something like the common advice "if you try hard enough, you will make it". This does not apply here. Age is also a factor (not when you are near 30 previously doing other unrelated stuff). some of the common lousy methods include
1) Study a MBA (from half -past- six universities)
2) study a CFA or do a CPA
3) Get into investment bank backoffice and try to snake through to the front (it works only for maybe 0.1%)
4) Do own trading and tried to prove that you are a great trader. (No one interested in your trading anyway)
5) show a lot of "A+" in academics results

For more reliable methods...... I will post again if anyone wants

the easiest way is to have a friend who has the power to hire and is willing to help you. he will get you into a junior position and influence your career progression.

but he probably has hundreds of similar requests...

give up lah.

-another guy

Originally Posted by another guy

the easiest way is to have a friend who has the power to hire and is willing to help you. he will get you into a junior position and influence your career progression.

but he probably has hundreds of similar requests...

give up lah.

-another guy

Don't listen to this guy.
NEVER give up what you feel is worth pursuing.

Like another guy say having a friend or father inside definitely help but my guess is that most people here do not have and that is why they are still in this forum. My rmore reliable methods will increase your chance to get into front office by 100% from 1% to 2%.... isn't it great ? you have now 98% instead of 99% of failure. I am not being sarcastic here but really no matter what you do, the odds are very against you. I am assuming here you have no connection at all.

Ok. remember front office people are like exclusive club members and to join them is like a club deal-- either you are in, or you are out. If you are out, you will always be blocked at the door, no matter how close you are e.g middle office. So the idea is to get in through the weakest link into the club house. Therefore, it is no point for you to be the top performer in the settlement department, holds MFE/CFA/CPA/MBA, straight A students , best engineer in town, best computing knowledge etc.... than an lowly paid dealer in the smallest brokerage house.

Front office normally refer to dealers, traders, treasury sales, investment banker, fund manager (in Asset Mgt house and so much in banking) etc.... among them the pay scale, standard, demand/supply, barrier of entry differ by a lot a lot. An oil trader in top notch bank earns millions of dollar while a house dealer in a small local brokerage barely take home $2000 monthly. However, they are all called front office personal, they are all watching markets using Bloomberg/reuters, they are all doing sales in 1 form or another (difference is in the ticket size), they all attend conference and market talk, they all speak same language e,g long/short, mine/yours, pips/basis etc.., they all swear in the dealing room, they all go drinking everyday etc...

so if you are an average grader from ordinary university with no connection/knowledge/relevant experience, go and join the easiest FO position regardless of how low the salary is. As mentioned, you can join as a house dealer in brokerage, future broker, money or oil broker.... if all else fail, join brokerage as a remisier and get to know the who-who in the market. Get into the dealing room in any bank or brokerage 1st as an intern, coffee boy, trader assistant, research analyst, temp staff, trainee etc..... just secure a leg inside 1st. Always fight to be a temp trainee in the FO than to be perm team manager in operations, bossing over 10 men, if given 2 choices. Most of the above do not require fanciful degrees from Oxbridge or MFE/CFA, just an ordinary degree with CMFAS module 1 and 6 for some (which any tom, dick and henry can easily take and pass) will do
this first step of getting in is always the hardest and most sacrifice (in pay, security ... etc) are made.

After you get in, you are one of the club member... the next step (much easier now) is to connect with other "higher-level" FO people in position of your choice be it swap trader, credit trader, investment banker, fund manager, derivative trading, structuring, money market, treasury sales etc ... then next is to connect to the FO of better house...example from local brokerage to local bank, from local bank to European bank, from European bank to US consumer bank, then finally to US investment bank , example only, not to say which is better.... long way to go for career building

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Like another guy say having a friend or father inside definitely help but my guess is that most people here do not have and that is why they are still in this forum. My rmore reliable methods will increase your chance to get into front office by 100% from 1% to 2%.... isn't it great ? you have now 98% instead of 99% of failure. I am not being sarcastic here but really no matter what you do, the odds are very against you. I am assuming here you have no connection at all.

Ok. remember front office people are like exclusive club members and to join them is like a club deal-- either you are in, or you are out. If you are out, you will always be blocked at the door, no matter how close you are e.g middle office. So the idea is to get in through the weakest link into the club house. Therefore, it is no point for you to be the top performer in the settlement department, holds MFE/CFA/CPA/MBA, straight A students , best engineer in town, best computing knowledge etc.... than an lowly paid dealer in the smallest brokerage house.

Front office normally refer to dealers, traders, treasury sales, investment banker, fund manager (in Asset Mgt house and so much in banking) etc.... among them the pay scale, standard, demand/supply, barrier of entry differ by a lot a lot. An oil trader in top notch bank earns millions of dollar while a house dealer in a small local brokerage barely take home $2000 monthly. However, they are all called front office personal, they are all watching markets using Bloomberg/reuters, they are all doing sales in 1 form or another (difference is in the ticket size), they all attend conference and market talk, they all speak same language e,g long/short, mine/yours, pips/basis etc.., they all swear in the dealing room, they all go drinking everyday etc...

so if you are an average grader from ordinary university with no connection/knowledge/relevant experience, go and join the easiest FO position regardless of how low the salary is. As mentioned, you can join as a house dealer in brokerage, future broker, money or oil broker.... if all else fail, join brokerage as a remisier and get to know the who-who in the market. Get into the dealing room in any bank or brokerage 1st as an intern, coffee boy, trader assistant, research analyst, temp staff, trainee etc..... just secure a leg inside 1st. Always fight to be a temp trainee in the FO than to be perm team manager in operations, bossing over 10 men, if given 2 choices. Most of the above do not require fanciful degrees from Oxbridge or MFE/CFA, just an ordinary degree with CMFAS module 1 and 6 for some (which any tom, dick and henry can easily take and pass) will do
this first step of getting in is always the hardest and most sacrifice (in pay, security ... etc) are made.

After you get in, you are one of the club member... the next step (much easier now) is to connect with other "higher-level" FO people in position of your choice be it swap trader, credit trader, investment banker, fund manager, derivative trading, structuring, money market, treasury sales etc ... then next is to connect to the FO of better house...example from local brokerage to local bank, from local bank to European bank, from European bank to US consumer bank, then finally to US investment bank , example only, not to say which is better.... long way to go for career building

i think it's easier to build another Osim or Hyflux from scratch.

[ericgohjunhui]

Thank you for your sincere advice. Can u further elaborate where can I start from? I don't wish to go on the wrong track. Thanks.

[ericgohjunhui]

and i was told that i can start from private banking or RM role in the bank? is this true

Originally Posted by ericgohjunhui

and i was told that i can start from private banking or RM role in the bank? is this true

As i said, start from the weakest link you can find. Dealer in local brokerage be it stock, future, oil, money market is one of the many of them. RM role is another but bear in mind that each path leads to a different function in front office although the lines can be blurred sometimes as you get more senior. Again, age is an important factor. You have to be young to go through these cycles, not when you are in mid 30s.

A RM role normally starts in mass market (say <50k), followed by the slightly affluent sector(50k to 200k), then the priority banking (>200k), then more elite priority banking (>1.5m), then private banking (>5m), then the ultra high networth (> 30m). the AUM is just an estimate and different bank segment slightly different and calls by different fanciful names.
The path for this is more straight forward and this "front office" role is one of the easiest to enter although some people may argue that this is not. The possibility of branching out to trader/fund manager/investment banker is not high (although still higher than if you are completely out of banking) but some still make it to become Treasury specialist, FX strategist, Investment councillor etc. These roles are still contained within the consumer bank, not investment bank but they are already 1 step closer given their close co-operation to traders, structurer, fund manager trying to sell them all sort of nonsense to sell to retail clients..... and as Singapore moves toward becoming a "private banking hub--Switzerland of the East", these RMs, IC, specialist will gain in importance, even beating traders, in term of compensation, presitage and potential.....