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Shizuka Arakawa 30-01-2011 02:37 PM

Civil Service Current Estimated Potential (CEP)
 
Hi all,

Does anyone know how the CEP in the civil service is calculated? I am currently feeling discouraged now, because I got 9 points for O levels, 6 As for A levels and only a 2nd lower for uni. So is my CEP based just on 2nd lower? Does my previous good result for O and A levels taken into account of? Thanks,

Unregistered 01-02-2011 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shizuka Arakawa (Post 9193)
Hi all,

Does anyone know how the CEP in the civil service is calculated? I am currently feeling discouraged now, because I got 9 points for O levels, 6 As for A levels and only a 2nd lower for uni. So is my CEP based just on 2nd lower? Does my previous good result for O and A levels taken into account of? Thanks,

which uni and course u grad?

Shizuka Arakawa 01-02-2011 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 9226)
which uni and course u grad?

Hi,

I grad from NUS econs..

So is the CEP based on my 2nd lower only? Is my relatively good o and a levels "overlooked"? Thanks.

Unregistered 01-02-2011 10:17 AM

if you are ambitious you should join the private sector. to be a high earner in civil service, you need to be a scholar. and even scholars have different classes.

Unregistered 05-02-2011 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shizuka Arakawa (Post 9227)
Hi,

I grad from NUS econs..

So is the CEP based on my 2nd lower only? Is my relatively good o and a levels "overlooked"? Thanks.

CEP is revised every yr during appraisal.

your supervisor need to give a short write-up on why he give u a certain CEP on the form.
of cos if u dint do anything significantly diff from last yr,likely the CEP will remain unchanged.

Unregistered 12-02-2011 06:34 PM

Just curious, what is CEP used for?

blackswan 13-02-2011 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 9523)
Just curious, what is CEP used for?



CEP is the highest appointment u can achieve at age 50.
so if u hit your CEP of say dy director at 45 ... u will get stuck at dy director forever...

Just Want To Know 13-02-2011 06:40 PM

CEP is base on ur "performance"

If your boss always consult you or ask you for help or work.

your CEP UP. gg.

laguna 14-02-2011 09:50 AM

dun like the game of CEP
very bias,
if ur boss likes u, ask u to do lot of presentation to the big bosses, then ur CEP will be higher. However, if u answer questions wrongly, that is
if ur a scholar, then different scale.

Unregistered 14-02-2011 11:16 AM

CEP is based on your potential, hence its term "Current Estimated POTENTIAL".

You may perform very well in your job, but if your CEP is low, you're not going to get promoted any time soon. This is something I don't understand. How is potential assessed if not through one's performance?

Unregistered 14-02-2011 11:23 AM

To add to my earlier post, CEP is what your bosses think you're capable of achieving at a certain age. It is not based on one's class of honours, or O or A level results (but of course, nothing is to stop a boss from holding the myopic view that grades reflect one's potential).

blackswan 14-02-2011 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 9557)
CEP is based on your potential, hence its term "Current Estimated POTENTIAL".

You may perform very well in your job, but if your CEP is low, you're not going to get promoted any time soon. This is something I don't understand. How is potential assessed if not through one's performance?

What I personally think would be :

Supposed A is a very good engineer/economist... very strong technical skills... however his organizational/leadership skills r poor... his performance as an engineer/economist will be high but his CEP is limited he might not be suitable for management positions.

Supposed B is also an engineer/economist and his technical skills r not bad but not excellent , however he has strong organizational/leadership skills can see big picture, his performance as an engineer might not be as high as A (as shown by quality of work) however his CEP might be high as his boss would think he suitable for mgmt.

orangeTorp 17-03-2011 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shizuka Arakawa (Post 9193)
Hi all,

Does anyone know how the CEP in the civil service is calculated? I am currently feeling discouraged now, because I got 9 points for O levels, 6 As for A levels and only a 2nd lower for uni. So is my CEP based just on 2nd lower? Does my previous good result for O and A levels taken into account of? Thanks,

Its very hard to change your CEP once you are in unless somehow, you are really very much better than all of your peers. In the Civil Service, 2nd Lower is not considered good honors so that's why your CEP will be lower.

Unregistered 17-03-2011 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangeTorp (Post 10258)
Its very hard to change your CEP once you are in unless somehow, you are really very much better than all of your peers. In the Civil Service, 2nd Lower is not considered good honors so that's why your CEP will be lower.

if you have 2nd lower and you have job offers from the private sector, do you self a favour and don't go into civil service.

miwashi 17-03-2011 03:24 PM

why is that? Is the CEP associated with 2nd lower really that bad?

orangeTorp 17-03-2011 03:51 PM

the thing abt the civil service hiring is that the main factor of consideration is honour's classification... that's also the criteria they use to differentiate starting pay (the difference is $100-150) and scheme of service...

Unregistered 17-03-2011 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 10262)
why is that? Is the CEP associated with 2nd lower really that bad?

It's bad compared to those who got better than 2nd lower, of course.

Unregistered 17-03-2011 05:20 PM

I thought for 2nd lower or upper, the starting CEP is an MX10? Of course CEP changes as you work, if you have a higher calibre, it will be raised.

blackswan 17-03-2011 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 10270)
I thought for 2nd lower or upper, the starting CEP is an MX10? Of course CEP changes as you work, if you have a higher calibre, it will be raised.

i thought everybody who is fresh grad go in as MX13?

Unregistered 17-03-2011 11:15 PM

This Current Estimate Potential (CEP) system is a totally flawed concept. How can a superior estimate the potential of a subordinate whose potential is higher than his own? How can a person see a vision higher than his own? How can a toad appreciate the size of a whale?

SMU Convocation Speech by Mr Tommie Goh (Summarised)

This is the text of the SMU Convocation keynote address by Guest-of-Honour, Mr Tommie Goh, Chairman, 2G Capital Pte Ltd, delivered on Saturday, 19 August 2006, at the Suntec City Convention Centre.

I am honoured to be with you all today at your convocation. SMU is close to me. When I decided to make a contribution to a tertiary institution some years back, SMU was my choice instinctively.

I did not make it to any university so I am not qualified to lecture or to teach. What I will do is to share my thoughts and experiences as an entrepreneur for which I have better credentials.

Entrepreneurs are people who start their business rarely wondering whether they should or should not do it. They just do it. Being an entrepreneur is a compulsion. They have been wanting to do it for the longest time. Being an entrepreneur is something that is “in your blood”.

......

Be honest with yourself. Know your limitations. Believing in yourself doesn’t mean bluffing yourself. You must know what are your own strengths and weaknesses. Don’t pretend to be something you are not. When I finally passed my “O” levels, I knew that I was not academically-inclined. I know I am not “book-smart”. But I believe in my own abilities. I know I am “street-smart”

After 13 years in the army, I knew that with my “O” level qualifications, Grade 3, not Grade 1; I cannot be promoted beyond the rank of Major. That was my limitation in the Army. But my belief in myself told me that I could succeed further outside the Army. So I left the Army. I founded JIT Electronics in 1988 and when the company crossed the 100 million dollar revenue mark, I knew I needed to recruit professional managers who are more able than me in managing a company this size and growing rapidly. I know my limitations.

......

I founded JIT in 1988 and sold it to Flextronics in 2000. In 1988, I invested $100,000 in JIT and twelve years later sold it for $1.16 billion; a multiple of 11,600 times. Not bad for a 100 thousand dollar investment.

......

If, Tommie Goh, can be here as your guest speaker in your convocation – an ‘O’ Level graduate, of ordinary parentage and no capital advantage – just think, how much more privileged and better off each one of you here are. Treasure your studies but remember to thoroughly enjoy your time at SMU. Make it a distinctive part of your life experiences.

Make it happen!

Thank you.

Unregistered 18-03-2011 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 10281)
This Current Estimate Potential (CEP) system is a totally flawed concept. How can a superior estimate the potential of a subordinate whose potential is higher than his own? How can a person see a vision higher than his own? How can a toad appreciate the size of a whale?

SMU Convocation Speech by Mr Tommie Goh (Summarised)

This is the text of the SMU Convocation keynote address by Guest-of-Honour, Mr Tommie Goh, Chairman, 2G Capital Pte Ltd, delivered on Saturday, 19 August 2006, at the Suntec City Convention Centre.

I am honoured to be with you all today at your convocation. SMU is close to me. When I decided to make a contribution to a tertiary institution some years back, SMU was my choice instinctively.

I did not make it to any university so I am not qualified to lecture or to teach. What I will do is to share my thoughts and experiences as an entrepreneur for which I have better credentials.

Entrepreneurs are people who start their business rarely wondering whether they should or should not do it. They just do it. Being an entrepreneur is a compulsion. They have been wanting to do it for the longest time. Being an entrepreneur is something that is “in your blood”.

......

Be honest with yourself. Know your limitations. Believing in yourself doesn’t mean bluffing yourself. You must know what are your own strengths and weaknesses. Don’t pretend to be something you are not. When I finally passed my “O” levels, I knew that I was not academically-inclined. I know I am not “book-smart”. But I believe in my own abilities. I know I am “street-smart”

After 13 years in the army, I knew that with my “O” level qualifications, Grade 3, not Grade 1; I cannot be promoted beyond the rank of Major. That was my limitation in the Army. But my belief in myself told me that I could succeed further outside the Army. So I left the Army. I founded JIT Electronics in 1988 and when the company crossed the 100 million dollar revenue mark, I knew I needed to recruit professional managers who are more able than me in managing a company this size and growing rapidly. I know my limitations.

......

I founded JIT in 1988 and sold it to Flextronics in 2000. In 1988, I invested $100,000 in JIT and twelve years later sold it for $1.16 billion; a multiple of 11,600 times. Not bad for a 100 thousand dollar investment.

......

If, Tommie Goh, can be here as your guest speaker in your convocation – an ‘O’ Level graduate, of ordinary parentage and no capital advantage – just think, how much more privileged and better off each one of you here are. Treasure your studies but remember to thoroughly enjoy your time at SMU. Make it a distinctive part of your life experiences.

Make it happen!

Thank you.

and another thing, I think people generally do not like to show that their subordinates have a much higher capability, especially if the person grading the subordinate is of a low CEP.

Unregistered 18-03-2011 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 10262)
why is that? Is the CEP associated with 2nd lower really that bad?

You can get opportunities in the private sector and there is less stigma of being a 2nd lower (no one gives a ****).

Unregistered 18-03-2011 11:11 AM

^ get *better* opportunities

miwashi 18-03-2011 02:24 PM

i got 2nd upper and i can't even get offers in the private sector. even jumping to another gahment sector job gives me $800-1000 pay cuts. So much for education and experience.

Unregistered 18-03-2011 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 10294)
i got 2nd upper and i can't even get offers in the private sector. even jumping to another gahment sector job gives me $800-1000 pay cuts. So much for education and experience.

Are you the exception or the norm?

Did you analyze why your career has come to a dead end? Any advice for fresh job seekers?

Thanks for sharing.

Unregistered 19-03-2011 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 10301)
Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 10294)
i got 2nd upper and i can't even get offers in the private sector. even jumping to another gahment sector job gives me $800-1000 pay cuts. So much for education and experience.

Are you the exception or the norm?

Did you analyze why your career has come to a dead end? Any advice for fresh job seekers?

Thanks for sharing.

Advice No. 1: Get a professional degree (and not general degree), e.g. accounting, IT, law, dentistry, where your skill has a market demand.

Advice No. 2: Do not go into government jobs that are have no external market value, e.g. customs, military, censorship etc. If you want to be a civil servant because of the stability, make sure you are working in a professional type of work, e.g. accounting, IT, law, dentistry where there are external benchmarks and you can get out anytime with relevant skills.

Advice No. 3: Do not be deceived by the higher starting pay dangled by government departments, they are the bait that catches the fish which is going to end up dead.

Unregistered 19-03-2011 12:14 AM

Agree with (2) and (3). Great advice.

shaz 26-03-2011 12:50 PM

CEP is arbitrary and is being looked at on an annual basis (i'd know because I've done ranking exercises for my staff). Your CEP will normally be at least 1-2 grades higher than your current CEP. If you enter fresh as an MX13, your CEP is going to be MX11. If it is more than 3 grades higher, then the reporting officer has to do a write-up on the officer to explain why he/she deserves a CEP that is 3x higher. Believe me, many bosses hate doing write-up unless you're truly exceptional. I had to do a lot of write-up when I gave one of my staff an "A" grade performance and a CEP that is 3x higher... in the end my staff got a "B" and 2x CEP grade.

When you get a promotion, your performance grade will be an automatic "C" (exception applies) for the following year... your CEP however, may be maintained/stopped/increased. So you can be an average "C" performer but maintain a high CEP. Age matters for CEP. If you're 50, an MX11 with CEP of MX10, you'll be ranked lower than an officer who is 30, an MX 11 with the same CEP. Anyway, ranking isn't exact science and there are too many factors to consider.

Be realistic when you're in a Ministry and not a scholar :)

blackswan 26-03-2011 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaz (Post 10534)
CEP is arbitrary and is being looked at on an annual basis (i'd know because I've done ranking exercises for my staff). Your CEP will normally be at least 1-2 grades higher than your current CEP. If you enter fresh as an MX13, your CEP is going to be MX11. If it is more than 3 grades higher, then the reporting officer has to do a write-up on the officer to explain why he/she deserves a CEP that is 3x higher. Believe me, many bosses hate doing write-up unless you're truly exceptional. I had to do a lot of write-up when I gave one of my staff an "A" grade performance and a CEP that is 3x higher... in the end my staff got a "B" and 2x CEP grade.

When you get a promotion, your performance grade will be an automatic "C" (exception applies) for the following year... your CEP however, may be maintained/stopped/increased. So you can be an average "C" performer but maintain a high CEP. Age matters for CEP. If you're 50, an MX11 with CEP of MX10, you'll be ranked lower than an officer who is 30, an MX 11 with the same CEP. Anyway, ranking isn't exact science and there are too many factors to consider.

Be realistic when you're in a Ministry and not a scholar :)

hwo to decide "CEP however, may be maintained/stopped/increased. "? :confused:

Unregistered 31-03-2011 03:51 PM

2nd lower does translate to a lower CEP at the start

starting pay will also be lower

the ministries/stat boards that take in 2nd lower are also of a "lower tier" and the job scope tend to be on the operations side rather than policy related work.

good points: operations, closer to industry, easier to network, more relevant experience
bad points: less opportunities to see and interact with the perm secs, ministers etc, which is vital if u want to climb civil service ladder.

on the point of CEP and performance appraisal, civil service have guidelines which ur superiors will use to in appraising you. it is very cumbersome for them to deviate from the guideline (writing their report and putting their names on the line for u). some other forumners indicated there's also a quota system so every yr only so many people can be graded an A performer, or increase their CEP.

if ur goal is to be a top civil servant (perm sec level), go into private sector first. get some years experience, a very good track record and come in mid-career with a higher CEP or even directly into the AO. civil service will always try to match last drawn pay.

if u like the job scope of that particular ministry/stat board, by all means pursue your passion. i'm a 2nd upper going into a ministry filled with overseas scholars and local 1:1s, i know i'll be a farmer there. but it's the nature of the work that appeals to me.

if u just want a stable job, 9 to 5. choose the ministry/stat board carefully. and that's the best place to be. stay as an asst director from 30-35, then promote to DD or D for last 5 years then retire. why not?

it all depends on what you want =) and all the best in job search!

blackswan 09-04-2011 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 10285)
and another thing, I think people generally do not like to show that their subordinates have a much higher capability, especially if the person grading the subordinate is of a low CEP.

quite true... but sometimes depend of the type of boss.
some old bosses gg to retire might want to groom and help young and bright officers. They might give them CEP higher than himself as he would have retired long before he reach the boss grade.

Unregistered 11-11-2011 06:13 PM

any ways to know your own CEP?

Unregistered 14-11-2011 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 10803)
2nd lower does translate to a lower CEP at the start

starting pay will also be lower

the ministries/stat boards that take in 2nd lower are also of a "lower tier" and the job scope tend to be on the operations side rather than policy related work.

good points: operations, closer to industry, easier to network, more relevant experience
bad points: less opportunities to see and interact with the perm secs, ministers etc, which is vital if u want to climb civil service ladder.

on the point of CEP and performance appraisal, civil service have guidelines which ur superiors will use to in appraising you. it is very cumbersome for them to deviate from the guideline (writing their report and putting their names on the line for u). some other forumners indicated there's also a quota system so every yr only so many people can be graded an A performer, or increase their CEP.

if ur goal is to be a top civil servant (perm sec level), go into private sector first. get some years experience, a very good track record and come in mid-career with a higher CEP or even directly into the AO. civil service will always try to match last drawn pay.

if u like the job scope of that particular ministry/stat board, by all means pursue your passion. i'm a 2nd upper going into a ministry filled with overseas scholars and local 1:1s, i know i'll be a farmer there. but it's the nature of the work that appeals to me.

if u just want a stable job, 9 to 5. choose the ministry/stat board carefully. and that's the best place to be. stay as an asst director from 30-35, then promote to DD or D for last 5 years then retire. why not?

it all depends on what you want =) and all the best in job search!

U joining MFA or MTI?

alwaysnforever 09-01-2012 11:24 AM

Can i know a CEP of PR(9)H refers to what rank?

Bean 09-01-2012 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwaysnforever (Post 19595)
Can i know a CEP of PR(9)H refers to what rank?

I am guessing should be superscale H. Or MX9

Job grade: MX9 (Superscale)
Job title: Deputy Director, Director
Pay scale: S$10,580 – S$14,550 / S$14,551 – S$16,540

Civil Service Pay Scale in Singapore | Salary in Singapore | SG Salary Guide to Pay, Income and Jobs

miwashi 09-01-2012 12:48 PM

Seriously, even if one has a very good CEP, how many actually reach that point? After all, any organization only has so many directors, and 1 or 2 CEOs and they won't leave unless they retire or get posted out.

alwaysnforever 09-01-2012 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 19602)
Seriously, even if one has a very good CEP, how many actually reach that point? After all, any organization only has so many directors, and 1 or 2 CEOs and they won't leave unless they retire or get posted out.

my organisation is quite large, and secondments are also possible, so there are still chances.

Heath 09-01-2012 02:06 PM

is it possible to bust the upper end of the salary range wifout being promoted ?

im quite close to the upper bound but im not due for promotion yet :o

Nani 17-01-2012 02:12 PM

Hi guys, may i ask a question?

If a civil servant with a high CEP (more than 3 times his current grade) leaves the civil service for stat board positions, is there any advantage?

I am fully aware that the CEP is irrelevant for private sector (correct me if i am wrong), but for public service (stat board), should have some advantage right? Some people say can 'bring over' the CEP to your next job, so long as you're within the civil or public service.

Glad if anyone can comment on this. Thanks.

Unregistered 17-01-2012 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miwashi (Post 19602)
Seriously, even if one has a very good CEP, how many actually reach that point? After all, any organization only has so many directors, and 1 or 2 CEOs and they won't leave unless they retire or get posted out.

Yes, that's why a lot of people feel "betrayed" when their career never progress like what their CEP indicate.

An average size stat board or ministry ratio is roughly 1 Head : 10 Directors : 30+ Deputy Directors. But if you look at a normal degree non-scholar CEP, most will indicate potential up to Director or Deputy Director.

Then you take a look at how many Executives, Managers and Assistant Directors there are, there just isn't enough senior positions to fit in everyone. Together with the low attrition rate of government jobs, in the end you will end up like 8 people with same CEP at DD competing for 1 avaiable DD opening.

CEP is a code word for career ceiling, it does not mean that is the likely career path, it just mean best possible career path you can ever get.


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