Engineering and Technology Careers are Not Valued - Singapore is "High Cost Low Tech"
 

Among news like a monk and an infidel GP doctor making six-figure income, there's an interesting piece in ST two days ago - ex-top civil servant Ngiam Tong Dow worries that Singapore is becoming "high cost, low tech".
His concern is valid.

In Singapore, the best JC students are attracted by glitzy ads and employment survey reports (see example) glamorizing the banking and finance industry and repeatedly highlighting that top dollars are made there.

For engineers and techies, they only get to hear things like "with a basic degree, you get to wash test tubes".

Or that engineering and tech talent are a dime a dozen from China and India.

It is no wonder that students die to get into the in-demand courses like business, finance and accounting, while engineering and technology-related courses are dumping grounds.

See my previous posts on getting out of engineering and dead end career.

We all know that techies are undervalued in sunny Singapore. You're a techie, you make 5k and be happy. Stay happy. Else get out and go to countries like USA, Japan, or even China and Taiwan where tech talent are much more highly valued than over here. Or, get into banking or do a sales job.

So Mr Ngiam worries about the lack of local high-tech talent.

There's always a simple solution (right?): Start paying top dollars for engineers.

Start with tech-related ministries and agencies like Mindef and MDA. Then, move to tech-related GLCs like Singapore Technologies and JTC.

Pay millions for, say, the Chief Innovator in DSTA and ask the media to cover this ad nauseum (much like the way life sciences were glamorized in the not too distant past).

Hopefully we get to confuse the students again.

http://www.salary.sg/2008/engineerin...cost-low-tech/

1729
 

Ya meh? The techies I know & work with are paid quite a lot leh. 10k+ is quite common. Our juniors are earning like 7k already... not including bonuses.

1731
 

@Howcome, which tech companies pay 7k for freshies?

1732
 

Sorry, by juniors I mean those with about 5-7 yrs lah. Not fresh grads. I'm not that young :)
And to be fair, let me qualify it further: techies in foreign banks. The highest fresh grad *techie* pay I heard in the banks circle is 5.5k.

1733
 

Yes techies in banks. But if you are a non-techie in bank you probably earn twice to thrice as much.
Personally,I used to be an engineer, and for the same reasons of low pay I left for the finance sector. Now I earn 4-5x more than I used too as an engineer. It's just a very tough and unrewarding life to be an engineer unless you discover some groundbreaking technology.. for a finance guy, you just do simple maths, charge high commissions and rake in the $$.

1734
 

@Howcome, ah... so it's still the banking & finance industry. duh.

1735
 

But it's *techies* of banking and finance industry, see. The topic is that techies in singapore are unappreciated and underrewarded, right? And that like Ex-engineer, they are leaving engineering in droves to the NON-TECHNICAL part of banking and finance industry. There's a difference like Ex-engineer said!
My point is that it's still possible to be a techie and not happy with just 5k/month but much more.

1736
 

@Ex-engineer, if you don't mind--what do you do exactly? Was it tough to switch? 4-5x more--does it mean you've broken the 200k pa mark? I suspect I'm probably near the glass ceiling for techies. Gotta plan for the next 5 years or so...

1737
 

There are many qualified Filipino engineers and Indian IT programmers working in Singapore. Their pay is average $3k to $6k. They are very happy. Because they work 10 years can go home buy land, build house and live happily ever after. Companies don't need to increase pay to $10k. Because when pay is only $5k many foreigners happily snap up already. Blame the government if you want. Ha.

1739
 

I would think it's tough to change considering most of my peers tried but didn't manage to do so. I was one of the lucky ones.. but if you try hard enough I am sure it's possible. I was an engineer for only 2 years though.. so that might have made it easier. I trade for a living nowadays.

1741
 

honest truth is that people in the finance industry are over paid. The reason why the industry can do so is because they are consistently ripping off customers with low interest rates and high risks products.

1742
 

it is easier to get to the finanace industry than you think, especially for engineers. Those who find it hard to switch usual lacks the communication required for front office or the operational knowledege for back office roles.

1743
 

Hey CJ, it's a free market. Nobody mandates the finance industry to overpay their people. It's like an overvalued stock--instead of screaming it's overvalued, just go with the trend and sell on high lor.

(1) Interest rate is a macroeconomy variable--it is bigger than just about "ripping off customers".

(2) High risk products have high risk because they have high potential returns as well, or else obviously nobody would be stupid enough to buy them.

You don't seem to know about finance a lot--so how do you know how easy or difficult it is to get into it?

1744
 

200k pa sgd-equiv is chump change for someone with 5-7 years experience in New York and Hong Kong.

1745
 

Yeah, of course, Chump change. My friend in New York working as an IT contractor earns around 500k SGD pa. But I like Singapore leh :)

1747
 

While there is some truth in this article, I feel that there are other factors to consider.From what I know,not everyone in the banking industry earn big bucks.And even if some of them do,what does it come at the expense of?Longer working hours?More stressful working environment?Higher need of taking risk?Higher chance of getting retrenched or sacked during a financial crisis? Personally,I m an engineer working in a MNC in the oil and gas industry for the past 2 years since graduation from uni.I am already drawing a pay of 5K/mth.Compared to most of my peers who have switched to the banking industry,I think I am much better paid in terms of pay. Nevertheless,I do know of friends in the banking sector who are paid very well.But it is by merit that they are paid so well.Eventually,one has to be discerning and not think that everyone who joins the banking sector can expect higher pay than the engineers. Everything still boils down to your ability and desire to succeed. :P

1753
 

In 2 years your salary has increased to 5k already? That's very good!!

1754
 

I for one, agree that engineers, for all their expertise, are underpaid. But then again, its the same old demand supply theory again. Not everyone in banks are paid so highly. Join the ops department and you'll get a monthly paycheck just over 3k, similar to what an average engineer earns in an MNC.

Remember the report on the highest earners in Singapore and their academic background? The fact is that most of them possess an engineering degree. And the next fact? They are mostly working in banks as well. So am I contradicting myself? Probably. But my point was demand and supply.

Engineers and finance graduates are highly sought after in banks and the limited number of places in front office positions mean that only a selected few get the golden paychecks. Thus the question is: should engineers get similar pays in their respective industries then?

I'm not sure if it's up to us to say. Everyone wants big money in their respective careers. And the reason why banks are paying such big bucks is because they are the primary tool of financing the economy. Without them, companies would have difficulties in hedging against risks, taking loans for expansions or evaluating their shareholders' value.

You can say that engineers create innovations of efficiency, govt bodies manage inflow and outflow of foreign investments and scientists and doctors improve and save lives. But which industry should earn the most? Who actually have an answer to this? I know I don't.

1756
 

Just want to cite a good friend of mine as an example. He works in a reputable investment bank and earns thrice of my annual income. Like myself, he has also jus graduated and has only been working for 1 year. However, wef next month, he ll be switching job to a non investment banker one. Even though the pay cut will be significant, he has no regrets considering the exchange for freedom and a less stressful lifestyle. Like I said before, other than the monetary compensation, one has to weigh in other factors when considering his/her career. If you have the ability and the aptitude to go for the super high paying jobs, good for you. Otherwise, it's not too bad to be an engineer. Yes. You probably won't get paid as well as an investment banker. But you won't be too miserly paid too. The worst thought to have is to naively think that just by joining the banking industry, any tom, dick and harry can make tons of money. If most of the students have this kind of thinking, I say good luck to them.

1758
 

wow..kinda interesting..juz found tis website nw..i m gg to NUS tis yr to study mechanical engineering..n anyone can i ask cause i do shorlisted for interview with BCA related sponsor companies>> capitaland, city developements and cpg corporation.. but found out that building n construction industry nt so lucrative at all huh?!

1760
 

@Nicholas
wow!! 2 years experience got 5k..the annual increment damn high in oil industry...i assume ur starting pay around 3.2 to 3.5k.

1763
 

Guys, engineering is like the tortoise in the race, while finance industry is like the proverbial rabbit. As a rabbit you get high returns but your energy burns out fast, while as a tortoise if you can go on strong and steady for 10 years you will enjoy a relatively stress-free career and high returns.

PE is the short term for professional engineer and their going pay is 10K a month at least - I know of plenty and they are not expats, just singaporeans like you and me who stick to their jobs, build up on experience and reap their just harvests.

A young banking yuppie might earn 10K a month, but let's see if he can sustain over the next 10 years. He will be able to hold on (burning his life out in the process) or change to a much less stressful job.

You decide which path you will choose ^^

1766
 

PE, I totally agree with your comments. I am a strong believer of the supply and demand theory. From a personal and selfish point of view, I am very happy to see friends and many people giving up on engineering and trying out their luck in the banking sector. I mean, don't even hesitate. Just go for the glamour and glittering career in the banking sector. I look forward to the day when there are a shortage of engineering talents and people like myself will reap the benefits. And at the rate of talent depletion in engineering, I believe that the day is not too far off. I truly enjoy seeing the high oil price environment and I still get to enjoy relatively comfortable salary at a relatively low stress working environment. So to all the students who despise engineers and want to put on your branded ties and cuff links bankers wanna be, pls go all out to pursue your dreams. Good luck!

1770
 

hi nicholas, tats just becos u r in the chemical engineering industry, not all engineering jobs are created equal...

1772
 

Why do people think bankers lead a stressful life? I know some who are so relaxed they grow obese, and are paid by millions. I also know engineers who slog all their lives, on standby for 24 by 7, and still get miserably paid.
A case of sour grapes perhaps?

1773
 

which Engineering industry pay u the most after working 2yrs from fresh grad...(excluded OT pay)

Electronic>>>no
Aerospace>>no
Chemical>>yes good example is Nicholas
civil>>no
marine>>no

1780
 

bankers who are stress free and earn millions compared with engineers who slog like hell and earn nothing is like comparing the cream of the crop with the bottom of the bucket.

remember we should look at majority at the whole - it could also well be the other way round. I also know of CTOs and PEs earning high 6 figure salaries per annum and bankers who earn a puny sum for their hard work.

it's illogical saying sour grapes just to defend the industry you are in. Ler's be objective.

1781
 

Maybe my comparisons are a little extreme. But i still think people in the finance industry here in Singapore make more money across the board. Look at the starting pay, look at the average pay, median pay, number of millionaire employees. Further, the number of CTOs and PEs aren't a lot compared to SVPs or private bankers or ibankers. And if engineering is that good, u don't need an MP and an ex-perm sec to come out to say engineering is worth the while. And unis and polys won't have engineering as dumping grounds. And SMU and NUS BUS won't be competing for top students for their business courses.

1782
 

Whenever the subject of rich people comes up, one of the first things that people always say is that: "Just because they're rich doesn't mean they're happy", or some variations of the same thing.
I wonder why.
After all, when we see poor people, we don't feel compelled to say: "Just because they're poor doesn't mean they're sad." :)

1783
 

my fren is only 30.
he works in the banking industry, goes to office at 930 & knocks off promptly at 6, & his monthly salary is 5 figure.

1784
 

You said it right - the number of PEs and CTOs are a lot lesser than bankers, and naturally as a result millionaire employees among them would be lesser. This is a simple case of maths.

The focus now is on, why is banking so highly glamorized? Answer - because with banking you can achieve instant high gains due to commission (and for that matter, any sales job) Not true for engineering jobs, where you have to work your way up steadily. Youngsters nowadays look at fast gains and results (just look to the slimming centres nowadays - who needs exercise? But it is well known that exercise is the best way of losing weight)

And I also know a fren who's an electrical engineer - he works for a US company and takes home a 5 figure salary too (in USD) but he's singaporean. And he is not even 30.

1785
 

I am an ex-engineer working in a bank as some calls it front office treasury role.

As for the question on why engineers are lowly paid compared to bankers, it all boils down how much money can you bring to the firm.

E.g. I used to work as R&D engineer, and I work together wih 10+ R&D engineers to innovate 1 product, and a assembly line with another set of product engineers, technicans and factory workers to produce the finished product. Besides of the huge human resources requirements, there are large capital expenditures e.g. machines, factories. The margin is low with high overheads (engineer pay is one major overhead).

In a bank on financial markets, there is product developement team called the quants, abt 3-4 people with phd in maths, who comes up with new structured products and risk management solutions, a desk of 3 traders who manage the risks, a few sales to push the product. There is a middle/back office settling the trades, etc. For a relative small operations, the pnl can be enormous at roughly 5% of volume, thus can be around USD25mio/yr. Divide the bounty between 5-10 FO staff, and you can see how much bonus they get.

1788
 

begtodiffer

That's the best answer! I think generally there are 2 sectors in any industry. (1)The people who help to create a product, and (2)the people who help to sell a product. Engineers fall into category (1). The more you pay them, the less profit the company make. Sales is in category (2). The more you pay them, means they are bringing more profit. Assume the sales earn 20% of total sales, so if they make $200k a year, means the company make $800k a year! A top sales always win a top engineer/lawyer/doctor/pilot handsdown. Sim Wong Hoo is the best example, he can easily become a engineer in a big MNC, but he chose to sell soundcards!

1791
 

Also, are you aware that PE hold tremendous high responsibility and the reward is peanuts. Look at those PEs involved in the Nicholl Highway incident. Being charged and sued. May end up in jail .

A Professional Engineer (PE) is allow to submit plans and provide consultancy for a project. However, the market is competitive and thus the fees are miserable. cannot compare with a surgeon . Moreover, for a Civil PE , he is impossible to oversee the whole project without delegation. Unlike surgeon , he is in the ops room all the time and fully aware of the situation. But if something happened badly to the project, the PE has to face the music though may be fault due to his subordinates. So, worth it with peanut pay ?

1792
 

In response to your comments about PE being paid peanuts and made to shoulder heavy responsibilities, I beg to differ. Your example is skewed towards a one off Nicol Highway incident. But you cannot generalize this incident and deduce that all PEs will be made scapegoats if something happens. Engineering is more than one or two person's efforts and decision. In an established multinational company, nobody makes a decision based on his whims and fancy. There are many systems, policies and various subject matter experts to comply and consult before a decision is arrived. And if some mishaps were to happen, investigation will be carried out. If the mishaps occurred as a result of flaws in systems and not due to negligence or wanton attitude of the employees, the employees will not be taken to task. In other words, it is easier to be an engineer than what most people will think. Coz we do not operate alone. Neither do we sit behind the desk all day long to do lengthy pages of calculations. And regarding the comment that PE are paid peanuts, I am surprised that 10K - 20K/mth is peanuts and butter to you. Based on the singapore labour force wage statistic for all age group, if you earn 10k - 20k/mth, you are already the top 5% earner. While it is little when compared to people like Mr Sim Wong Foo who earns millions of dollars a year, I still think that it is a respectable pay compared to majority of the Singaporean. Maybe you will like to share with us how much you are earning or expect to earn in order to qualify the peanuts comments. :D

1794
 

After reading all your comments, I really do feel compelled to chip in my 2 cents worth.

My stand is that Singapore doesn't really pay that well for its engineers and scientists (techies). While I agree that while techies cannot expect hefty bonuses like the bankers (as they are usually not directly involved with sales), too low pay will cause your tech people to worry and be distracted and not focus on the job. Thus the quality of work is likely to deteriorate.

I have a close friend who just completed a PhD in the defence engineering industry. He's starting salary in Singapore is only 5k after slogging so hard, and that is one of the highest around. I have heard horror stories of other companies paying even lower than that. With this kind of mindset from employers, how can Singapore ever encourage its people (who are super practical and kiasu) to ever go into science and engineering?
Compare this to overseas engineering companies in Israel, where the starting pay for an undergrad (yes u-grad) is $6k SGD. Not absolutely fantastic, but good enough. I have also seen adverts for engineering teachers in Dubai with a 200k+ salary tax FREE.

So my advise would be the same as with many others:

Do engineering and get out of Sg. Stay in Sg, get out of engineering.

1809
 

hi nicholas

agree with your supply & demand theory. oil industry is relatively comfortable now, but when it cannot find the bodies it wants, "foreign talents" will come in. this is like what is seen in other industries eg IT, engineering, banking. not so sure where u will be then.

1812
 

I have been in Software Engineering for 10+ years and I can tell you that it is a lot of hard work , late nights and below average pay when compared to the people in the financial section. But we had our good days (remember the dotcom bubble), when everybody wants to be in Software (even actresses) and salary was rocketing.

Last few years, globalization has made Software Engineering not so attractive because you have to compete with Engineers from cheaper Asian countries and thus limit your salary. If Singapore engineer pay go up, it has to be justified with higher productivity (which may mean longer working hours) and better innovation (which is easier said than done).

The statements about demand supply is correct, as it more or less sums up the situation I described above. The only silver lining I see is that Singapore has highly motivated and skilled engineers compared to the cheaper Asian countries and many MNCs are aware of that, so they still depend a lot on us to provide their IT solutions.

One question, will the finance and banking industry one day face globalization like IT ? I remember reading that it was already happening with Accounting jobs going to India , but anybody can comment on this?

1818
 

hi i am gonna be an intern at an oilngas mnc. i think the main reason y banks can pay so much is there r little costs to cover.... as compared to (for oil gas) huge refineries, chemical plants...

their construction, maintenance n operating costs amount to a lot...most engineers r employed in capital-intensive industries... so even sky-high oil prices translate to high profits... they will invest billions into new plants or better technology rather than give out as big fat bonuses or salaries compared to banks.

wat to invest in for banks? higher salaries to attract top talent !

1823
 

hi Al C

did u advise your fren to go into teaching at uni or polys ? refer to http://www.salary.sg/2007/top-100-jobs-in-singapore-2007/#comment-1821

looks like the ivory towers of cushy academic world is better than the sg engineering industry.