for what

titles are nothing with the equivalent payscales

I think i did the right thing in this case. If a company limits their choice of talents to only theoretical paper qualifications forgetting the part on relevance, experience and good track record, they also limit their reach. My former manager in another European MNC was a diploma holder who became GM. I remember him as a charismatic leader who also has extraordinary EQ and brings in the big deals. He got posted to China before covid and heard he is doing well despite the pandemic. Of course, he got degree holders working for him. :)

Thank you for the reply.

So are you saying high IQ supposed to work under high EQ
Then school should just teach EQ skills in school can liao.
The different ways of saying no.
The different ways to manage people.
The different ways to inspire people

I think you don't understand that leadership comes in a whole package.
Productivity comes with good resource usage. Ability to harness the right talent measured with pertinence, with proven track record, all these are important to leadership. Paper qualifications are training you received to perform on your job. But it doesn't necessary mean you will perform to the expectations of the leadership.

In the past I have seen young engineers who believe they deserve to promote faster because they have a degree even when they don't perform better than their diploma peers. Even with high IQ, they don't realize that promotions come to those who value add, deliver results, meet KPI. And a degree doesn't guarantee that. That's why I was quite amused when my friend was told he could not have been a project manager or did what he did because he only has a diploma.

Schools can only teach you that much. You need more than a piece of paper to prove your mettle.

If you can't attend part time uni courses to complete a degree I today's online age.
You can't lead a team of high IQ engineers.

Your charismatic self entitled I have the "personality" to create value will piss smart engineers who design the highly intelligent systems for you.

Managers with no education. Pui.
You can't even complet a degree where 100% of your inferiors can... Shows you don't have the capability to lead.

Go lead Mcdonald la

Diploma holder can be manager la.
To lead a team of diploma holders.

Diploma holder don't listen to degree holder manager de.
So there is a place for non degree holder...

Like aircraft maintenance or ship maintenance etc.

I think it really depends on luck sometimes. I know one diploma holder who took 20 years to promote from a manager to senior manager, but only 3 years from senior manager to AVP after he moved to a different group.

AVP is not luck la.
It's basically like this.

Senior management : we need to restructure. Who to lead this unit ah?
Circle : why not xxxx he senior manager for a similar unit for a while.
Senior management: no don't like him. Anyone else?
Circle: how about yyy he been wirh company 20 years. Very approachable nice guy.
Senior management: sounds good. OK I will approach him...

Informal
Senior management : yyy hor, you heard about the restructuring?
Yyy: yeah when ah?
Senior management : soon, now we doing succession planning and we are considering to appoint you to lead this unit.
Yyy: wah I'm not sure I want to leave my current unit le. Already established good rraltionshup with my guys.
Senior management : hmmm like that ah. Rare opportunity like this you should consider la. Otherwise you are stuck as senior manager in your current unit cause AAA won't be going anywhere soon. Aiya you can bring your guys over la when you avp in the new unit. But only a few la can't transfer everyone over la.
Yyy: like that ah... Can think about it or not? How many guys can I bring?
Senior management : just a left hand and a right hand...
Yyy: only 2? My current team got 15 ppl le.
Senior manager : just choose 2 promote over... If not then we look for other candidate
Yyy: OK I think...

That is luck meh?
More like no one else in the succession line and got opportunity...

Yes this is called luck.
Lucky that senior management don't like the other guy.

It's called office politics.

M2 salary 9k possible?

Fresh grad already 5k.
You think le

Currently how much is your PMP diploma friend paid in the MNC?
To ST, someone with diploma will be offered a base position of an assistant engineer, with a pay grade E4. E4 max pay scale in current scheme is around $4200 max.

Note that fresh degree grad ZERO exp start at E5, maybe 4k.

totally

My side have Operations Manager who overseas many shop managers.
But some shop manager are M3 and reporting to Operations Manager who is E6 only?

I dun understand????Really dun understand.

mai talk rubbish here lah troll

you go read newspaper even they report in 2020 IT already offering 5k

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I don't know how much he makes but he seems very comfortable with a mid level continental car and private property with a family of 4. He used to travel frequently in the past before the covid. But he did mention about the challenges he faced at work before and he offers very globalized viewpoints. Completely unlike the diploma holders you see in ST.

I have already gotten over the ST interview and I'm glad I was able to focus on what matters. I won't survive in ST with a MNC culture, mindset and critical thinking. I just feel ST breeds an unhealthy obsession of paper qualification defined systematic limitation towards talent usage. It creates a self entitled mindset that they deserve the next promotion because they have a degree and not because they have created value. You make someone believe they can do more or less just by getting a piece of paper losing focus on the part that truly matters : delivering results and the process of getting there.

You study hard so that it can equip you with the knowledge to deliver. You don't study hard so that you can become part of a system that defines your worth on the paper you have. Your value is defined by the results you bring and the process you execute to meet that result. I learnt something from our conversations. Thank you for asking.

Trust me, out of 10 first class honours fresh grad, if got 2 or more with actual competence or the right attitude to learn is very lucky already. Many first class honour grad join ST with the mindset already shaped to just managing people and projects.

I wonder if those are the job scope set during interviews or offered in contracts.

Just curious, can a fresh grad be a project manager in ST?

sure.. then without experience he will screw up the project and make the company lose money

But with degree he won't screw up. Thats why degree holders fresh grad can be project managers.

you 12yo ah?

so childish... sorry i dun talk to kids

If degree fresh grad cannot become manager then why i take degree
Only those who are self entitled think they deserve to promote because they are charismstic or have experience. But this is a Singaporean company, if you cannot even bother to take a degree, how do you expect to can promote. A degree is a degree. No amount of experience and knowledge can replace. As a project manager, i don't need to know anything about my project take whatever pmp as long as my men know what to do. If diploma can be project manager then You ask yourself how many managers in ST don't have degree?

Everyone can get a degree now. SIM etc. Pay and study for it. Don't be lazy.

Project manager need skills la.
1) thick face
2) lie to boss / lie to customer
3) cover own ass
4) appear as team player but be selfish
5) inspire team to do the work while you just manage and track progress...

Not easy. For people with self respect.
Everyday just meeting. Worrying about deadline but can't affect the outcome

Yah lah. I also don't understand why some people can be so lazy die die don't want to take degree and they think they got many years of experience managing project or some pmp cert can become project manager. How can experience be better than a degree that we spend 4 years to study for.

Project manager is pretty useless. PMP? I can get the cert in 2 weeks.

You joking bro? 2 weeks? I just need 2 days.

Yes, 1.5 days is also possible if you want to chiong. Seriously, jd that asked for useless cert is not worth applying for. Normally the salary is low as well adjusted to the number of experience.

With a good degree I think I can get my pmp certificate in 1 day. Useless certificate lah. Take a degree with first class honours and automatic become project manager in ST. You no need to know anything about the project or your whatever product as long as your men know their job. Anyway you cannot do much as a project manager except to pray for no problems.

A few days off this site and the discourse has extended interestingly to the area of project management.
Read through some of the comments to my amusement but I also cannot help but shudder at the thought of what sort of people ST hires if these are the mental framework of their staffs.

What a Project Manager Can Do
“Everyday just meeting. Worrying about deadline but can't affect the outcome”
“Anyway you cannot do much as a project manager except to pray for no problems.”
“You no need to know anything about the project or your whatever product as long as your men know their job.”

Precisely why you need experience in performing project management. There are so many more things you can do apart from worrying and praying with a degree paper qualification.
- When the project is conceived with your sales team, you need to access the feasibility of all aspects like technical, operational, material/financial resource-wise, potential profits then create a project charter to convince the management why this project is a GO.
- Manage the capex, calculate the amount of capital and ensure the requested amount suffice to fulfill the project.
- You need to identify your stakeholders and allocate the most suitable person for the role depending on the products/services your project is fulfilling. You cannot get an engineer experienced with electrical engineering to design a mechanical product he/she is unfamiliar with. A degree won’t help if you don’t have the relevant experience. You cannot get designers experienced only with ANSI standards when your customers demand DINS standards.
- You need to work with other stakeholders to exchange personnel if your existing allocated staff is not suitable for your project taking note that this might offend your engineers thus diplomacy is paramount in the communication.
- You need to know when is your critical path going to change or potentially change so you can link up and provide the resources based on the gaps or potential gaps that may arise from the progress of events.
- Keep up the communication between functions so that information pertaining to the responsibilities/operations/product & process characteristics are shared and remain updated. This can help to preempt your different project members of upcoming events and prevent minor element related project stall.
- Know when to change suppliers/vendors.
- Justify the need to extend deadlines
- Take the shot when it is time to talk to management and client if you need an extension of deadline because of justifiable reasons.
- Mitigate the financial losses you can incur and lawsuits you might have to handle when a milestone deadline is breached.
- Explain why the initial capex is insufficient, why additional resources are needed and you need to do it on time to avoid deadline breaches.
- Remain likeable because your teammates usually don’t report to you directly, they also have other PJMGR to deal with and project mates might prioritize work based on how likeable the PJMGR is.
- Possess integrity, good track record and leadership with exemplary communication skills.
- Train up new Project engineers and inspire them to become next generation PJM and expand your organization’s skilled and experienced human resource pool.
Etc…

You basically need to know your products/services, your clients, your suppliers, your departments & your colleagues. I doubt you get these as a degree holding fresh graduate. Therefore I doubt anyone sensible will hire a fresh graduate as a project/program/portfolio manager. So to answer the question that sparked off the discussion, I seriously don’t think ST will be that unwise to place a fresh grad as project managers.

How long do you need to take a PMP
“Yes, 1.5 days is also possible if you want to chiong.”
“You joking bro? 2 weeks? I just need 2 days.”
“With a good degree I think I can get my pmp certificate in 1 day. “

I had a good laugh at these. PMP certificate cannot be completed without a minimum of 3 years
An accelerated course will take 5 full days to complete. Followed by a local test which you must score more 80%. Then you must prepare a written testimony from your employer which proves that you have been in project management as a project engineer role for 3 years for degree holders and 5 years for diploma holders. The reason for more years for diploma holder is because at the same age as a degree holder, diploma holders have more years on the job and statistically more matured in terms of leadership. So more years are expected on the job.

After that, register for a PMP examination from PMI and again score another >80% to pass. The certificate will only be granted if you pass with evidence of your project management responsibilities that fulfills the role. If you fake your credentials, you will be stripped of your certification validity and barred from future PMP exams. Integrity is one of the key requirements of a PJMGR and you can be sure PMI will enforce that. Also, take note of the certificate expiry and remember to go for a re-certification before it expires. The curriculum will change by then so advised to go through the updated course to stay updated and prepared for the exam.

Paper qualifications vs Experience
“A degree is a degree. No amount of experience and knowledge can replace.”
Unfortunately, my friend, you need to understand the truth is just the opposite. No amount of classroom lessons can surpass the effects of learning through personal experience. You get a degree so as to prepare yourself to start somewhere but it is what you accumulate along the way that develop your skills. Your real skills start to develop only when you start working. Companies who limit potentials by promoting base on paper is like telling the public only white men can fly. They certainly haven’t heard about the Tuskegee Airmen. The paper qualification helps you to absorb your lessons faster while your experience accumulates. It does not become something that entitles you to be above reality.

Forsake the entitled mentality that you can only be promoted because you have a degree. Build up the mentality that you can only be promoted when you provide value above your peers to your role and your organization and your process providing that value has been impeccable.

My division previously employed new M1 from other industries as PM. Know nothing about the nature of business, keep insisting on his old ways of doing things. Always insist on doing useless stuff and never follow up on things that customer asked for. Then it became everyone's problem except his.

Also he has no people skills, always got this condescending smirk on his face. He won't discuss, he gave orders. He literally made the whole product team unhappy and given his working style, his requests usually ended up lowest priority or simply forgotten. Then it became everyone's problem but his.

lol dumbass

He is not a dumbass lah. He is just stating a blunt truth thats all.
As a first class honour degree holder fresh grad, no need pmp or experience, don;t say project manager, you can even be a program manager. Able to do the job or not is not important as long as have paper. If you work in those mnc, your experience is more important. Just like the other post said no knowledge on the business, no people skill, so if you don't have what it takes but have paper then go to ST loh...

Good response bro, we know all of these.

Those posts you quoted are quite obviously from someone trolling this thread. Probably an unhappy ex staff being sarcastic.

Talk so much i still beat you with a degree in ST. Continue to dream lah.

Learn to respect others before others will respect you lah...bodoh

What he said is quite true. You can have a diploma holder with 10 years experience losing engineer position to a freshie with degree. Both are capable and doing the same things.

In ST, paper qualification determines how far one can go from the start. There's even differentiation between degree classes. It kind of mirrors the civil service in a way.

Then go get a degree. Period. Point blank.
What's so difficult? All degree holder went thru it

So why diploma feel so entitled that they don't have to go thru the graduation process.
Experience? Everyone can gain experience.

So. Go get the degree and compete.
We are living in a global workforce now. You're not just competing with local degree.
You're competing with China, India, Malaysia, Philippines, USA, Russia, Taiwan...

As the world get smaller due to digital revolution and globalisation.
Its very short sighted for you to claim "experience" is all it takes.

The younger generation already have to compete on so many level.
1) degree in a prestigious uni
2) high starting pay or you're nothing
3) social media presence or you're nothing
4) video editing and if you want passive income or you're nothing
5) tik too presence or you're nothing
6) speak only English? Americans are already branching out and capturing the market of making income from speaking Chinese, Korean, Taiwan, Malaysia. Hell we even have a Japanese on promoting Singapore with more viewers than a Singaporean.
7) investment or you're nothing

So don't come and preach with your victim sad story of "I don't have degree but I have experience"....
Set your goal higher.

In a way this caused shortage of manpower for us. Management wanted degree holders but unwilling to pay. We then suggest getting experienced diploma holders. They refused. We just need engineers, not rocket scientists. Now the team running extremely thin on manpower for so many projects.