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  #2081 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2021, 02:56 PM
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Thank you for your insightful posting. I'm actually doing project management on a SME for medical industry. I have a question maybe you can advise a little.

I was allocated a project by the boss to create a part for installation into a bigger medical equipment (A foreign MNC) The problem is that the project went into tool manufacture because the engineering assumed customer will award us and then customer pulled out claiming because we failed their audit. We already spent some money on tooling to trial some parts but the customer refused to pay for the tooling. They claimed we did not ask them for permission to open the tooling fabrication. The tool is just a prototype tool and we only made 1 so it is not expensive but the boss is not happy about it. I know it is easy to point fingers at the engineering but I am still the project manager and have to take responsibilities. Base on your MNC experience, what do you think we could do to avoid such a problem in future?
simple la...

Just push everything to the engineer to answer for the tool Also not your problem,

boss unhappy also no use. Not your fault also. PM need to know how to tai chi otherwise

how to be PM.

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  #2082 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2021, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mugenboy View Post
Is it true that almost 90% of the employees are as "Outsource Staff" in ST Electronics?
Not sure if this applies to all division. Most project-based new hires now are either direct ST contract or outsourced contract unless it's roles like division admin or actual manager role. So far only division admins and M3 managers and above usually come in as perm.

For project-based engineer roles to be converted is really a wayang show or the engineer is really amazing in his work.

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  #2083 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2021, 03:11 PM
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Not sure if this applies to all division. Most project-based new hires now are either direct ST contract or outsourced contract unless it's roles like division admin or actual manager role. So far only division admins and M3 managers and above usually come in as perm.

For project-based engineer roles to be converted is really a wayang show or the engineer is really amazing in his work.
You know why they do this?
It's to
1. Maintain power. Don't like you. Just don't renew you. Compared to if you are perm, can't fire without cause. So can only give bad performance to affect bonus. But then destroy team morale. So that's why they outsource.
2. To reduce cost. I heard each division very expensive. Cause need to justify finance etc. So every quarter the management perm kpi cannot meet. Cause financial need to show investor its making money... So that's why outsource. Those cost become soe thing else... Very funny right.
3. No project. The fact that ST never innovate or compete globally and have been "iron rice bowl" under all this management for years. Made this company very backward. And also hard to attract talent cause current company also no talent. So end up alot of perm staff with high pay but no skills. No experience. Just bullshit talk. Anything just hire outsource to do the work for them. Then promote perm.. Terminate outsource...
4. The management who are already perm have nothing to lose. They have no reason to offer perm also at the expense of their bonus and kpi.

Its the same analogy as why company would rather hire foreign worker cause cheaper. Foreign worker work harder for lower pay. Singaporean want more pay and do less.

Its only cause gahmen step in and say your ratio need to be 3 Singaporean to 1 foreigner. That's why alot of company don't do that.

But don't have law or policy that says your company must be 70% perm and 10% outsource...

So it end up with 90% outsource and 10% perm.
This problem is so prevalent that I even overhead some guys complaining "how to manage risk and assurance of project if everything is outsourced?"

Blame this on the senior management.
Senior management don't care as long as their wallet and position is secure.
Never mind this outsource practise will only leak talent.

Actually if I'm not wrong senior management alrwady said 3 years more outsource must be converted to in house contract. I dunno what la.

But all they do is just rename outsource to insource.
Nothing was changed. Just like how their reorganisation and restructuring is just renaming of legal name. Nothing is changed. Office same. People in power same. Location same. Business nature same.

Different is everyone know confuse what is called what.
Name card change. Email title changed. Even customer also confused Electronics still exists or not.
Sometimes have to tell the electronics hub still exists. It's still called electronics hub. But don't have ST Electronics anymore legally.

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  #2084 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2021, 03:26 PM
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Not 90% la.
More like 75%.

In my division of 100 people, maybe like 25 is perm.
1 M4
2 M3
5 M2
15 M1
3 E6

The rest is mostly E5 and E6 outsource with no chance of promotion of conversion.
Every year is see people come and go. Usually people leave at year 4 when they realised their contract will only keep renewed. And the perm won't leave. Like really. They either love the place so much. Or they don't have place to leave. Like don't see any perm leave in the past 10 years here. Only see they keep getting promoted higher and higher.

No. I'm one of the perm E6 and no I also don't have chance to promote cause too many M1 in my division.
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  #2085 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2021, 06:06 PM
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Alot of people assume work in big company is iron rice bowl cause job security.

if you have 1 division of 100 people.
Lets assume all get equal fresh grad starting pay 5k.

Thats 500k per month cost.
To sustain just for 2 years contract, that's 12 million.

If you just start a division right now with 100 fresh grad (not even the whole cohort of comp science), u already need 12 million of investment upfront just to ensure their job for 2 years.

Problem is nowadays fresh grad are too expensive.
And project cost are not expensive enough.

If i tell u 1 project is 1 million dollars, u already feel wah so expensive.
Just to sustain 100 fresh grad in 1 division all aimless walking around impostor syndrome u need 12 of this 1 million projects...

Use brain la.
Fresh grad is too expensive.
We haven't even count those high paid management..

CEO rather eat the 12 million as his bonus than setup a division of 100 fresh grads.
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  #2086 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2021, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Not 90% la.
More like 75%.

In my division of 100 people, maybe like 25 is perm.
1 M4
2 M3
5 M2
15 M1
3 E6

The rest is mostly E5 and E6 outsource with no chance of promotion of conversion.
Every year is see people come and go. Usually people leave at year 4 when they realised their contract will only keep renewed. And the perm won't leave. Like really. They either love the place so much. Or they don't have place to leave. Like don't see any perm leave in the past 10 years here. Only see they keep getting promoted higher and higher.

No. I'm one of the perm E6 and no I also don't have chance to promote cause too many M1 in my division.
Actually, whether engineers really learn a great deal in the first few years in ST does not hide the fact that when engineers leave at year 4 and 5, it is a big set back because not only these engineers are at the point when they are experienced enough to carry their projects or tasks through without much supervision but they are also senior enough to lead junior engineers.

But as you pointed out, ST has too many junior to middle management that many capable engineers lost faith in the system and simply left for other better prospects. New engineers have no one to follow because the M1s and above will likely have forgotten how to do the things which they might have conveniently pushed down previously.

I still remember before the change in the remuneration package, my job title included my specialization, which I think is important to this day because it reflected the niche or specialization of the person or engineer. After the change, my title was simply "engineer" and lumped together with the rest to fight for promotion.

Yes, I was an outsourced staff.


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  #2087 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:45 AM
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Actually ST electronics strategy is to keep the management levels as permanent. They can continue to manage and lead projects. While keeping the workers below as temp ones
Because workers come and go anyway. The only way you can be considered perm in ST is to be promoted to at least a manager level from your individual contributor level.

This is the same strategy with Accenture's division which deals with govt projects. But they are abit better, they do promote people from the bottom up. But just very rarely. Bottom people are hired directly as perm positions and their career growth is accounted for. Unlike ST you chiong so many years also never convert to perm, much less career progression.
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  #2088 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2021, 06:59 PM
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Actually ST electronics strategy is to keep the management levels as permanent. They can continue to manage and lead projects. While keeping the workers below as temp ones
Because workers come and go anyway. The only way you can be considered perm in ST is to be promoted to at least a manager level from your individual contributor level.

This is the same strategy with Accenture's division which deals with govt projects. But they are abit better, they do promote people from the bottom up. But just very rarely. Bottom people are hired directly as perm positions and their career growth is accounted for. Unlike ST you chiong so many years also never convert to perm, much less career progression.
The need for management staff as permanent is understandable due to the need for stability in the company. However, like you said, put in sweat and tears for many years without any knowledge of KPI or performance not only hit morales, but also a deal breaker for many.

The number of years I was there, there was never a performance appraisal or KPI indicator discussion. Year and year do the same things, if propose something, management reject. If don't do anything, management feels never contribute enough. Truth is many outsourced staff have no idea what were their KPIs and which areas of work / character they have excelled in or need improvement / changes.

Before I left I sat down for a talk with my supervisor and he blabbered a lot of things which are of no help in any way. No help because I asked how I can further develop my skills and specialisation. What I was told was I can try to request to be PM or go into other product streams, which none was my niche. When I finally tendered, he had totally forgotten our discussion when I tried to bring back the topic. I'm not sure how many people faced similar issues as me. For someone who really want to contribute, that was a real slap in the face.
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  #2089 (permalink)  
Old 13-05-2021, 02:50 AM
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Default Outsource (STE Staff)

Had come across that some staff worked like 10 to 15 years still being label as Outsource Staff. The funny part is that during those D&D, they will announce long service award employees.

Guess it is very difficult to attract talents since all job would be place as Outsource payroll. This could be a good reason to use if wanted to leave the organisation.
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  #2090 (permalink)  
Old 13-05-2021, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MNC PJM View Post
I am the MNC PJM
Wow... Didn't expect the response to go this way.

I am not from your company so I can only try to base your question on my limited experience to provide you with answers.

Based on your question, I summarize your problem as:
"Project Engineering function produced Test Tooling for Trial without Customer approval for Tooling"
I think it will be pertinent to ask yourself some questions first.

1. Is there a defined product development process?
* 1a. What is this PDP based on? What are the gates and deliverables defined in the process? Can you share?
* 1b. Do you have a Master Service Agreement with your customer (now ex customer) signed that also covers compensation in the case of project reversal? Where is this master service agreement located in the PDP?* How often do you review the relevance of the Master Service Agreement if you use a generic one?

2. Does your process clearly defines when tooling can be fabricated?
* 2a. Which gates must be bought off by your team before your tooling can gain clearance for fabrication?
* 2b. Who are the stakeholders for this gates clearance? Does it include engineering?

3. Where did Engineering get the budget to produce that first tool for trial?
* 3a. How did engineering get approval for this budget? (You need to really look into residual budgets left over from previous projects or existing budgets from other projects within the engineering department. Did they transfer money from other projects into this project?)
* 3b. Preparing tooling needs raw materials (How did it clear procurement without question? You need to escalate if there is no multi-parties in their approval documents and get quality and corporate compliance team to step in).

Maybe answering these questions can help to provide some answers to your problem.
Mnc jiu ish mnc. You must have MBA otherwise cannot answer like so expert pm de.
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