Lawyer Salary

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I see. What do you think of the prospects of law students returning from the UK gaining a training contract with the Big 4 in light of current events?

I get that you're worried about prospects, but you shouldn't try to squeeze out answers from this forum when nobody has one. The truth is, the glut of graduates is unprecedented and nobody can tell how each individual will fare. All we know are anecdotes and bits and pieces of hearsay here and there, and make semi-educated projections about prospects for future graduates based on this.

Here are some harsh words for you to hear, but you need to hear them.

If you're returning with an Oxbridge degree, you're in good stead.
If you're returning with a higher to mid ranked OSU degree, you're on par with the NUS/SMU students, even better if you can get a First Class, which is relatively easier to get in the UK.
If you're returning from a lower ranked OSU, you need to cast your net wider than the bigger firms.
If you're returning with the lower end of 2:1 from any OSU, you should question your aptitude for law, and seize on anything you get, even in the smallest of firms.

An avoidable glut of lawyers?: Voices (Straits Times, 22 Aug 2014)

How things have changed in the 12 years since I qualified as a lawyer (“Spike in overseas grads ‘the reason S’pore faces lawyer glut’”; Aug 21).

“Law school” here no longer refers to only the National University of Singapore but also Singapore Management University (SMU), and a third is on the way with an emphasis on criminal and family law.

The NUS law school’s annual intake has increased from 150 to 250. The Fourth Committee on the Supply of Lawyers recommended just last year to increase SMU’s annual undergraduate law intake from 120 to 180 over three years.

The third law school is expected to take in 50 to 75 students yearly. Meanwhile, the number of approved overseas universities for studying law has increased from seven or eight in the United Kingdom to 35 from four countries.

Malaysian practitioners who fulfil certain requirements are permitted to practise here, and other foreign lawyers may now register to practise Singapore law if they possess certain qualifications and satisfy certain requirements.

The new Qualifying Foreign Law Practice licences granted to foreign law firms, for permitted areas of legal practice, has increased the number of law firms in Singapore.

Although the Law Minister attributed the possible glut to the number of Singaporeans studying overseas to be lawyers, the dramatic increase in the number of lawyers available locally comes from all the factors mentioned above.

With the increasing internationalisation of legal work and preference for arbitration over court litigation, law firms can and do hire foreign-qualified lawyers, sometimes at the expense of local-qualified ones.

While the opening up of Singapore’s legal market to accommodate more foreign firms may not affect the number of training contracts directly, the stiff competition within a small legal market would make it more difficult for local firms to get more work and, in turn, take on more trainees.

As a mentor in the NUS Law Alumni Mentorship Programme, I understand that current law students are concerned about the situation.

One wonders if such supply and demand fluctuation arises from somewhat short-sighted policymaking. That there is a potential glut of lawyers is difficult to comprehend, given that the Government accepted the recommendations last year to increase the number of lawyers.

Granted, the supply of lawyers must match the macro-economic environment, but what does one say to a generation of students who were lulled into the complacency of thinking that a career as a lawyer necessarily ensues from a law education?

Fong Wei Kurk

Originally Posted by Unregistered

An avoidable glut of lawyers?: Voices (Straits Times, 22 Aug 2014)

How things have changed in the 12 years since I qualified as a lawyer (“Spike in overseas grads ‘the reason S’pore faces lawyer glut’”; Aug 21).

“Law school” here no longer refers to only the National University of Singapore but also Singapore Management University (SMU), and a third is on the way with an emphasis on criminal and family law.

The NUS law school’s annual intake has increased from 150 to 250. The Fourth Committee on the Supply of Lawyers recommended just last year to increase SMU’s annual undergraduate law intake from 120 to 180 over three years.

The third law school is expected to take in 50 to 75 students yearly. Meanwhile, the number of approved overseas universities for studying law has increased from seven or eight in the United Kingdom to 35 from four countries.

Malaysian practitioners who fulfil certain requirements are permitted to practise here, and other foreign lawyers may now register to practise Singapore law if they possess certain qualifications and satisfy certain requirements.

The new Qualifying Foreign Law Practice licences granted to foreign law firms, for permitted areas of legal practice, has increased the number of law firms in Singapore.

Although the Law Minister attributed the possible glut to the number of Singaporeans studying overseas to be lawyers, the dramatic increase in the number of lawyers available locally comes from all the factors mentioned above.

With the increasing internationalisation of legal work and preference for arbitration over court litigation, law firms can and do hire foreign-qualified lawyers, sometimes at the expense of local-qualified ones.

While the opening up of Singapore’s legal market to accommodate more foreign firms may not affect the number of training contracts directly, the stiff competition within a small legal market would make it more difficult for local firms to get more work and, in turn, take on more trainees.

As a mentor in the NUS Law Alumni Mentorship Programme, I understand that current law students are concerned about the situation.

One wonders if such supply and demand fluctuation arises from somewhat short-sighted policymaking. That there is a potential glut of lawyers is difficult to comprehend, given that the Government accepted the recommendations last year to increase the number of lawyers.

Granted, the supply of lawyers must match the macro-economic environment, but what does one say to a generation of students who were lulled into the complacency of thinking that a career as a lawyer necessarily ensues from a law education?

Fong Wei Kurk

Now wait for more damage control statements from minlaw...

Originally Posted by Unregistered

An avoidable glut of lawyers?: Voices (Straits Times, 22 Aug 2014)

How things have changed in the 12 years since I qualified as a lawyer (“Spike in overseas grads ‘the reason S’pore faces lawyer glut’”; Aug 21).

“Law school” here no longer refers to only the National University of Singapore but also Singapore Management University (SMU), and a third is on the way with an emphasis on criminal and family law.

The NUS law school’s annual intake has increased from 150 to 250. The Fourth Committee on the Supply of Lawyers recommended just last year to increase SMU’s annual undergraduate law intake from 120 to 180 over three years.

The third law school is expected to take in 50 to 75 students yearly. Meanwhile, the number of approved overseas universities for studying law has increased from seven or eight in the United Kingdom to 35 from four countries.

Malaysian practitioners who fulfil certain requirements are permitted to practise here, and other foreign lawyers may now register to practise Singapore law if they possess certain qualifications and satisfy certain requirements.

The new Qualifying Foreign Law Practice licences granted to foreign law firms, for permitted areas of legal practice, has increased the number of law firms in Singapore.

Although the Law Minister attributed the possible glut to the number of Singaporeans studying overseas to be lawyers, the dramatic increase in the number of lawyers available locally comes from all the factors mentioned above.

With the increasing internationalisation of legal work and preference for arbitration over court litigation, law firms can and do hire foreign-qualified lawyers, sometimes at the expense of local-qualified ones.

While the opening up of Singapore’s legal market to accommodate more foreign firms may not affect the number of training contracts directly, the stiff competition within a small legal market would make it more difficult for local firms to get more work and, in turn, take on more trainees.

As a mentor in the NUS Law Alumni Mentorship Programme, I understand that current law students are concerned about the situation.

One wonders if such supply and demand fluctuation arises from somewhat short-sighted policymaking. That there is a potential glut of lawyers is difficult to comprehend, given that the Government accepted the recommendations last year to increase the number of lawyers.

Granted, the supply of lawyers must match the macro-economic environment, but what does one say to a generation of students who were lulled into the complacency of thinking that a career as a lawyer necessarily ensues from a law education?

Fong Wei Kurk

short term policy making indeed. Surely the increase in intakes from NUS & SMU has contributed to the glut.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I get that you're worried about prospects, but you shouldn't try to squeeze out answers from this forum when nobody has one. The truth is, the glut of graduates is unprecedented and nobody can tell how each individual will fare. All we know are anecdotes and bits and pieces of hearsay here and there, and make semi-educated projections about prospects for future graduates based on this.

Here are some harsh words for you to hear, but you need to hear them.

If you're returning with an Oxbridge degree, you're in good stead.
If you're returning with a higher to mid ranked OSU degree, you're on par with the NUS/SMU students, even better if you can get a First Class, which is relatively easier to get in the UK.
If you're returning from a lower ranked OSU, you need to cast your net wider than the bigger firms.
If you're returning with the lower end of 2:1 from any OSU, you should question your aptitude for law, and seize on anything you get, even in the smallest of firms.

Great to hear. What then would classify as a mid to higher ranked OSU degree from the UK?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Great to hear. What then would classify as a mid to higher ranked OSU degree from the UK?

Top: Ox Bridge
Higher: UCL, LSE, Kings, Durham
Mid: Warwick, Bristol, QM, Notts, Exeter
Lower: everything else.

These are all very rough generalisations. Truth to be told, there's not much difference amongst the OSUs, in terms of rigour or education quality. It has to do mainly with perceptions.

Don't get caught up with where your school is ranked (i'm assuming by your questions that you're a Singaporean UK law student). Focus on your degree classification and your CV. Most importantly, focus on laying the foundations to being a good lawyer. A few years into practice, a fancy foreign degree won't save you if you're inept.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Top: Ox Bridge
Higher: UCL, LSE, Kings, Durham
Mid: Warwick, Bristol, QM, Notts, Exeter
Lower: everything else.

These are all very rough generalisations. Truth to be told, there's not much difference amongst the OSUs, in terms of rigour or education quality. It has to do mainly with perceptions.

Don't get caught up with where your school is ranked (i'm assuming by your questions that you're a Singaporean UK law student). Focus on your degree classification and your CV. Most importantly, focus on laying the foundations to being a good lawyer. A few years into practice, a fancy foreign degree won't save you if you're inept.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep those words in mind.

My advice to all worried undergrads is simple - don't fret just because things have become more challenging. Evolve and rise to the challenge. Start Networking. Milk your connections for all they're worth. Ask your friends and family if they have friends on the industry who might be happy to place your cv somewhere visible to their bosses or HR in exchange for a cup of coffee. Also, in this world of social media, you'll be able to find lots of potential cold call (or cold email) targets on forums and on LinkedIn.

Don't dehumanize lawyers. We're people too, and it can be very refreshing to receive a cold call from a hungry, ambitious undergrad who's scoured LinkedIn to hunt you and your peers down in an attempt to network his/her way into the industry. More important than legal skills are networking skills and the ability to build connections with strangers. Law is a business, and like all other businesses, ambition and thick-skinned hunger will take you far. Your prospective employers will appreciate your efforts and be impressed by your hunger, which could one day help to grow their business lines.

So stop worrying, and start getting hungry.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

My advice to all worried undergrads is simple - don't fret just because things have become more challenging. Evolve and rise to the challenge. Start Networking. Milk your connections for all they're worth. Ask your friends and family if they have friends on the industry who might be happy to place your cv somewhere visible to their bosses or HR in exchange for a cup of coffee. Also, in this world of social media, you'll be able to find lots of potential cold call (or cold email) targets on forums and on LinkedIn.

Don't dehumanize lawyers. We're people too, and it can be very refreshing to receive a cold call from a hungry, ambitious undergrad who's scoured LinkedIn to hunt you and your peers down in an attempt to network his/her way into the industry. More important than legal skills are networking skills and the ability to build connections with strangers. Law is a business, and like all other businesses, ambition and thick-skinned hunger will take you far. Your prospective employers will appreciate your efforts and be impressed by your hunger, which could one day help to grow their business lines.

So stop worrying, and start getting hungry.

Good advice. I definitely second it.

Let's not forget that the current and future grads have it very much harder than the lawyers of yesteryear. You won't believe how out of touch some hiring partners are with the conditions of today. Some seem to assume that trainee places are a virtual guarantee, and seem to assume that a graduate has some kind of problem if he struggles to get one. Repeated statements to that effect doesn't help either and perpetuates the same unrealistic career expectations that send increasing numbers overseas to study law every year.

easiest way to calibrate is to close the door to 2:2s from some/all OSUs

they are, on average, not as good as their peers from local unis